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deepsky

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About deepsky

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    Newbie
  • Birthday 10/30/1978

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  • Location
    Portland, Oregon
  • Interests
    art, surf,sushi, sunshine, sleep
  1. Troy, that's not at all what I was saying. It was an example and most definitely didn't mean to come off that a studio in Kansas isn't doing creme of the crop work... Really. My point was there are small studios that start up with little clients and may not be making much, they will find a way to grow, cut back or just do what work they can to get by - some of those studios won't be able to afford the average rate. Hell, even here in Portland some studios/production companies pay a third the rate I pay and a few I'm thinking of have some pretty large clients! Of course the smart talented kids move on quickly. Again, we're veering off topic.
  2. Just a small argument there, for small or start up companies. For newer companies or say someone in Kansas most likely they're not going to afford 50 pr hr, maybe never, because of their location, clientele, etc. They maybe doing good business, but they won't be producing creme of the crop work. If you have big clients and are in a good location like L.A. and can't afford 50 pr hr, yes, review your business model. We weren't able to afford 50-80 first yr in business, but we weren't producing what we are now. Yes, no matter how big or small the company it's smart to set-up entry to senior level positions. So those new to applying to graphic, animation, design studios, your rate may depend on their location, time in business and clientele. Oh Jon, you made veer off subject there.
  3. I don't think anyone meant or came off saying you have to dish out a lot of money to make money. No one hiring is going to ask how much money you spent on school or if you had a rich uncle. It was mentioned some colleges are overpriced. Unfortunately a lot of those poor graduates may never work in their creative field because they don't have what it takes, whether they don't have the passion, talent or motivation. I will say having an education especially in design and animation will bring more to the table and you'll be more valuable to the studio. Unless your working for a large studio and all you're skilled at is roto and tracking, but you're in trouble when there's no work. Also, if you're skilled with animating in After Effects and your a great designer, you're a keeper. Like was mentioned, most of those amazing designers we are inspired by have an education or even a fine art degree. Sure you'll have classes you never should have taken or paid for and you may have had a few terrible instructors or teachers, but you will learn a hell of a lot more skills that you would at home. Not only that but you're going to end up doing some challenging work, work you don't like and you might have a creative director that can't communicate or direct...college will prepare you for that. Ha. The studio that hires that self taught uneducated artist most likely will have to be trained and have their hand held outside using the program. Sure, someone is going to learn to use AE on their own, but they're going to need/use other skills such as understanding color, broadcast requirements, file organization, formats, what to deliver to editors using different platforms (just a few examples). Is that studio going to want to pay for trial and error and training that they should have experienced in college. Time's are changing, but no where near to say you don't need a degree. Really, how many of you would pay for an online college degree and say you'll get just as much experience at home? How are you going to get those project and people skills, working with a team, motivation, inspiration, being pushed by your teacher/instructor, doing things you don't like to do, having to be somewhere on time and work a weekend, art history, copyright laws, color theory, forgetting to save your project file after working 8 hours on it and the program crashes and it's due in 2 hours...yeah, I know, I can go on and on.
  4. Oh man, a day care...felt like it at one time a long ago. I don't hire all recent grads, there's still a lot of hands on learning to do and I'm not talking about AE.
  5. Eh, fair was a poor choice of words. Again, the title of this thread isn't right and I'm not making this black and white... As for self taught, I was speaking of someone who didn't go to college and in their first 1-2 years. Has anyone that's replied to this thread a production manager - always interviewing and hiring. If so, do you take into account what else a degree brings will bring to the table than just the reel...obviously we look for the talent and passion. Again this is just a general discussion. GreyMachine, I really liked your points with self taught training. Made me think back. Yes, we are always going to be self trained, researching and keeping up with new techniques, skills and software upgrades. We're all self taught in some way. Thanks for your opinions. I've been thinking about this for a few months.
  6. IRS is seeing so much freelance and 1099s an issue, more and more especially in California, there's less taxes being collected. If you have freelancers/contractors in studio working and using the studio's equipment, the IRS sees them as being employees and money they should be receiving. It's arguable if the freelancer works from home, questionable if most the work they do is for the same studio. If the freelancers bring in their own workstation, have an s-corp, haven't been commuting to the same location for a year, shouldn't be a problem. I've recently put some freelancers on payroll to avoid getting audited.
  7. Yes, this thread is not just about the payrate for someone who wasn't college educated. Not looking for anyone's approval here that I prefer hiring artist's with college degrees. The growing rate learning through online video tutorials and using free AE project files as short cuts, I'm seeing more and more, less with degrees. So for those new to After Effects and want to pursue being a motion artist for a living, don't knock college, you'll learn a lot more skills than just animation or design. To those working on building a slick reel, that's great, but don't use free online project files in your reel. Production managers do keep up and watch out for it. I am.
  8. TVP. Look at this way. If I have 4 motion artists working in studio with 2 or 4 year degrees and they are spending say 600 a month on their loans. I bring on a self taught After Effects artist with no degree and no loans, say they've been using the program for 1-2 years and I'm paying him/her the same rate as the other artists who have been using the program just as long outside school. If they discuss what they are making, now the employee may either feel they should be paid more because they spent the extra time and money on school (like they have an extra 2-4 years on them) or a freelancer may want to raise his rate. Make more since? So if I explain to the self taught AE artist why I would pay them slightly less than the artists with degrees, is that a fair validation or ignore schooling and pay by based on experience and reel...again I'm talking about the 1st 1-2 years. Don't be confused with the reference to the entertainment business and law I mentioned. This was a class many years ago that taught you copyright laws for music, video and image usage among many other things.
  9. Most definitely! Interviews in person is a must. As far as only hiring mograph artists with a degree, it's recently I've been seeing reels with no degree. I want to keep helping graduates out that are really trying to apply themselves but may have been too busy with school to make a flashy reel. Now, I'm referring to new motion artists in their first one to two years. Not questioning the pay for experienced artists, if you were self taught and working for 3+ years you should have more than enough experience! I'm still at ends whether to hire a new self taught artist that hasn't spent time and money for a degree and if I do is it fair for them to expect the same rate? (mentioned above a few reasons why I consider a degree in animation, design, etc to be beneficial).
  10. There's no issue. Yes, if someone asks too much and their reel and experience isn't there yet, they simply won't be hired. Again, I was curious what your opinions are, not making this an issue. Seems like no one here cares whether a motion artist has a degree (animation, design, fine art, etc) and be paid the same.
  11. I know the struggles graduates have when they first get out, it wasn't easy getting into this field 9 years ago. With the time and costs for education I suppose I personally rather hire someone with a degree in this field even if it's fine art (nothing to do with mograph). I feel I've been helping out, though most of the reels I see lack or don't see enough promise. Whether it's the college fault not helping the student build up a reel or the graduate not having what it takes. A couple of years ago I did see more creative work, not saying copilot isn't creative, I'm saying I see too much of it newbie reels. After reading these replies, this thread's title should be changed to 'Self taught AE newbies & rates'.
  12. I agree with you guys, I am not going to hire someone most definitely not because they have a degree... who does in this industry, you hire by reel and experience. I've been doing motion design for ten years now and there was nothing like Video CoPilot then and I don't believe there was a degree you could get that was specifically for motion graphics. My point was, graduates spend 30-80k for their degree in animation, design, etc. During those 2 years they got a lot of experience beyond understanding copyright material, design, history (art, film, animation). Last thing I want is a self taught AE artist that looks like they have a good reel but used AE project files and swapped out graphics, not understanding copyrighted material like grabbing images off of Google, Flickr, etc. Same goes for someone ripping off/copying an animation/concept like a broadcast open. That's been discussed here before. If the AE guy/girl is rotoscoping, screen replacing or just animating, then sure, pay that artist by their reel and how good they are. But I don't think a lot of people are going to catch everything in their reel was from Video CoPilot files... What I was looking for was your opinion with artist's charging 50 pr hr for just knowing AE their 1st year. I'm just really irked lately seeing so much CoPilot project files being used in reels with graphics swapped out, they are most definitely not going to be up to speed in After Effects and not as efficient. Here is what I have run into lately. An artist has a slick reel, I recognize some CoPilot work and shrug it off. The artist can't produce good motion work like in their reel with the outline, storyboards and material provided. Not only did that company lose 2k or whatever it is, they can't deliver it to their client, spend extra money and time to redo the work. Or the artist is charging 40 pr hr and is 3 times slower than a pro motion designer charging 80pr hr. Eh, I feel like I'm repeating myself. Personally I pay more hourly if that motion artist has a degree and is educated in animation, design and entertainment business law. I see a big difference in work produced and it's helpful when we're working on mixed media projects. We are not always going to hire good artists and be efficient, but it would be much appreciated if newbies stop using CoPilot files making it look like their work, as well as being realistic with starting hourly rates. What is very strange to me I'm getting self taught AE guys with less than a year's experience asking intermediate wages when local graduates want work for free to get their foot in the door. Shouldn't it be the other way around...
  13. Monstro, you did complete a four year degree in 3D, animation and design so you would most definitely be considered for a job. I am referring to self taught AE artists who did not get a degree in our field (design, animation, vfx) and taught themselves through free online tutorials. Tried to be clear about that, don't be irked, you're fine.
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