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chris_

more people trying to get us to work for free

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Well, I feel like a total ass for not catching this ad and removing it from Motionographer Jobs immediately. (Actually, there were two "good for your portfolio" postings that I have since removed.)

 

I'm not making excuses, but I've been working an assload lately, and I haven't kept as sharp an eye as I'd like on these sorts of things. I'm glad I saw this thread. If you guys catch any more shit like this, please email me at justin@motionographer.com.

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A little about myself, I have a great deal of experience in motion graphics. I learned After Effects back in 97, does anyone remember AE 3.1? I do, and I learned it at an UNPAID internship. I still have my AE 3.1 classroom in a book! At this UNPAID internship, I took out the trash, watered the plants, made the coffee, etc., and all the other crap that needs to get done in a studio. In return, I was taught the tricks of the trade and appreciated every second of it. The experience was invaluable.

 

Funny that you keep overly stressing those daily chores as if they were something to write home about. Man, if I didn't take care of some things, our company would look like a garbage dump. And before we had an automatic dishwasher, I was the one who did all the dishwashing while my colleagues are the ones who drink the most coffee and that was long after my intern days.... As for the rest - I tend to be more on chris_ side. If this a no-budget job, then something's wrong with it.

 

Mylenium

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It's the wild west in the jobs section here, and as Jon Stewart said tonight, we're a trifle maladroit. Aaaaanything goes, caveat em-mograph-ptor.

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I caught on this kinda late... but kinda skimming through and reading as much as I could handle...

 

I'm an intern myself. And personally... I'll never understand the idea of not paying an intern. The argument that it attracts good interns is misleading in a way. It can in a way attract good interns, but it can also deter good interns who aren't capable of affording to live in other areas. Coming from Cincinnati... and then out here to Los Angeles... gimme a break! This city is so fucking expensive it makes my head spin. I know for almost 90% of my classmates it would be next to impossible for someone around the age of 21 being able to live out in Los Angeles or New York - work a full time internship - and not get paid. You're asking that person to work a second job - and be tired and miserable at work.

 

And not only that - but who the hell wants to run the risk of getting an internship at a great company and have the fear of not truly knowing what you'll be doing there. You could be rotoscoping for hours on end or doing all the most grueling bitch work. Usually bitch work at nicer motion firms is unlikely it seems (at least from what I've heard)... but it all depends on what the company is working on too. There's also the risk of their being a drought for 2 months - and most interns are only around for 3.

 

I rant - but if you can't pay an intern then you don't hire an intern out of principle.

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From the Job Ad:

I am looking for an After Effects artists to help with some 2D graphics for a Music Video. You must be in the Los Angeles area. The time line is flexible, but you will need to start by August 20th.

 

Is this production work, design work or both? If so, and if there is no budget, isn't there another friend of the director/band who could help you? (if you're doing most of the work, and are as experienced as you say, then you probably worked with lots of other people in the past who might be interested in doing it just because it's a cool project and they get a lot of creative control.)

 

I'm not saying this sarcastically. I'm serious.

 

The offer of an internship is great, if that's really what it is. I don't think interns necessarily need to be paid for what they do...Since it's kind of like free schooling. But asking for free "WORK" is not acceptable. Interns are "learning" which means, they are taught things they don't already know...and get a lot more out of it than they put in to it. If you're looking for someone to do AE - who already KNOWS AE...well...that's not really teaching them anything. And if you're looking for someone to do some design who already knows design....well...you get the point. I did my share of "reduced rate" projects...and let me just say, I wouldn't want ANY of them on my reel. They were a meager paycheck. I did them because i was desperate. Not because I wanted to be involved in the project. And that's the crux of why you're getting so many pissed off people here. We don't like anyone trying to take advantage of those who feel that they should do something out of desperation to get ANY job. Especially if it's one that doesn't pay....because we've all been there...and we know how shitty it is.

 

So good luck on your search. I really mean that. I know some director/editor people who do low/no-budget music video jobs, and looking for good help sucks. But ultimately, until there are more budgets for motion graphics, you're going to see pissed off veterans of this industry getting their panties in a twist.

Edited by Firebetty

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Hi...new guy here with 2¢ on the "free work" ad :huh:

 

In my experience, lovelikefire is using the word "intern" incorrectly. A MoGraph "Intern" is someone that usually works for no pay (sometimes there is a small per diem) in a Design House or Graphics Department somewhere where he can learn from Junior Designers / Senior Designers / Art & Creative Directors / etc. This fella is looking for a poor sap and is probably gonna hit him up for his own gear as well.

 

I've been in the Ad Agency / Broadcast TV industry for almost 8 years and I do believe in intern programs...they work wonders for facilities & the interns themselves....but interns work in departments where they will learn something. What is the guy gonna learn if he is working on his own? Nothing...and lovelikefire will probably get a sub-standard finished product. I wouldn't want an "intern" finishing my music video. Why are Designers / Editors always an afterthought? He should have budgeted for GFX...period.

 

"Intern" does not mean "free". An intern is "a person who works as an apprentice or trainee in an occupation or profession to gain practical experience". Is someone going to mentor this person in After Effects on this music vid? Nope. I've done some Pro Bono work in the past to help folks out...non-profit or small FX shots in student films, etc. I don't appreciate this gig labeled as an "internship" because it's not. He also says he has a lot of After Effects experience. Why doesn't HE do it (for free, that is)?

 

...2¢

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What I get most often is "...We have this project we finished & it needs some graphics. We have very little budget (or no budget) but it'd be great for your reel & blah blah blah..."

 

Translation:

These people have collected their full rates & profits & stolen your motion graphics budget & put it in their bank account & they tell you they have no budget.'

 

Hit the nail on the head. If the original video had a budget of 5-10k then why wasn't some of it set aside for the mograph work?

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I rant - but if you can't pay an intern then you don't hire an intern out of principle.

 

You might feel a LOT differently about this when you are the one paying an intern out of your own pocket. I can say first hand that paying in intern is like flushing money down the toilet.

 

If a person doesn't have the skills to complete projects as a professional, and they are there to learn and build their reel, why should the be paid for it?

 

No offense, but I'm sick of young designers with this sense of entitlement. Put in your dues, man. PLENTY of people straight out of college both work AND intern. I did it myself.

Edited by graymachine

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Seconded!

 

You might feel a LOT differently about this when you are the one paying an intern out of your own pocket. I can say first hand that paying in intern is like flushing money down the toilet.

 

If a person doesn't have the skills to complete projects as a professional, and they are there to learn and build their reel, why should the be paid for it?

 

No offense, but I'm sick of young designers with this sense of entitlement. Put in your dues, man. PLENTY of people straight out of college work and intern. I did it myself.

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You might feel a LOT differently about this when you are the one paying an intern out of your own pocket. I can say first hand that paying in intern is like flushing money down the toilet.

 

If a person doesn't have the skills to complete projects as a professional, and they are there to learn and build their reel, why should the be paid for it?

 

No offense, but I'm sick of young designers with this sense of entitlement. Put in your dues, man. PLENTY of people straight out of college both work AND intern. I did it myself.

 

 

Full respect for ya graymachine - and not that it needs to be said but I'm definitely putting in my dues. But I'm just gonna say I won't ever see eye to eye on this subject. From what I voiced is more towards people coming from long distances. I'm a pretty open to opinion kinda guy - and I understand that paying an intern can burn a hole in your pocket - especially if he/she can't complete the tasks given. It would suck I understand. It's your decision to pay an intern or not - but I'm voicing my opinion that it's bull shit. It's your own gamble to hire an intern. But if it comes to a gamble then you shouldn't. I'm sorry that you've had some lame interns in the past.

Edited by docphibs

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For free work, it's my way or the highway. Simple as that. Unless it's something i'm doing for a good friend or some non-commercial work.

 

If you can't offer pay, but you still want quality, you better offer something else that's worth spending hundreds of hours doing stuff you usually are getting paid for.

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I do not know the actual amount, but typically, an indie band will have maybe 5-10K (if they are lucky).

 

Maybe i'm a bit oldfashioned, but if i go to a restaurant I certainly wouldn't order more than i could pay.

 

So if you've got a budget of 5-10k, why do you even plan on motion graphics? Why don't you just concentrate on a nice storyline that fits into your tiny budget?

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Guest Sao_Bento
Maybe i'm a bit oldfashioned, but if i go to a restaurant I certainly wouldn't order more than i could pay.

 

So if you've got a budget of 5-10k, why do you even plan on motion graphics? Why don't you just concentrate on a nice storyline that fits into your tiny budget?

Seriously, being a good producer or designer is about working within limits. Generally, the preferred way to show off your creativity is to come up with a great idea within the limits rather than skipping right to exploiting people.

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