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Here's a fun thread from VFXTalk about visual effects houses in India. I know of one high vfx exec spending a lot of time in Chennai setting up their corresponding shop. Note that long list in page two.

 

http://www.vfxtalk.com/forum/list-vfx-comp...light=frameflow

 

Note: 5,000 Rupees per month is about US$126.

 

Yes, that's per month, not per every two hours.

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Yeah, it does kinda suck to see work outsourced to cheap labor. But quality and speed of work is sacrificed in doing this. (I worked on two features that had cg done in India and finishing/compositing done here in the US.)

 

The same thing happened a while back with web design and development. The market takes a hit, but talented people have no trouble finding work.

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I really wouldn't worry too much about this. Baliwood produces more movies a year than hollywood could ever hope to. there's a genuine demand over there. IMO it would be stupid not to explore options for VFX houses over there.

Edited by aspekt

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here's an idea: outsource your work to india, pay em $5 an hour and hit the road for a travel session...

 

so what, if the indian motion picture industry has a huge demand for VFX they should come to the U.S.? we shouldn't try & capitalize on a market that has a need for our services?

Edited by aspekt

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Well I would love to send all the Red Type over White Background Comedy Trailer gfx I am doing to India. Hell I am surprised they haven't out sourced the whole trailer editing world to India with the amount of creative editing they are doing.

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We cannot compare between US and India VFX production houses. Their industry style, culture as well as vfx purposes are different over there. Besides, their production are often large scale. Casts, talents, producers, performers...everything is huge. They work like ants thus the profits are evenly distributed. Ive done many promo spots / broadcast graphics for India. I can say they have a different taste in color. They dont like red/green or blue with a neutral color. They want analagous+complementary color schemes. Very gaudy.

 

It is the culture as well as influence of the industry. Like how we get rubber from Southeast Asia and Spice from India! :D

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We cannot compare between US and India VFX production houses. Their industry style, culture as well as vfx purposes are different over there.

The situation is about American companies exporting work on US productions to their majority or wholly owned Indian facilities--Rhythm & Hues, Sony Imageworks's 51%-owned Frameflow, and the other places. Not so much about Indian productions doing VFX for Bollywood films. Sounds like you were talking about the latter, maybe? While I have their name in mind, Frameflow seems to be heavily into previs, not something that comes to mind right away when talking about this stuff.

 

Edit: I love how the Frameflow website says 'Los Angeles, Atlanta, Chennai.' :D

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Yeah, it does kinda suck to see work outsourced to cheap labor. But quality and speed of work is sacrificed in doing this. (I worked on two features that had cg done in India and finishing/compositing done here in the US.)

 

The same thing happened a while back with web design and development. The market takes a hit, but talented people have no trouble finding work.

 

I wouldn't worry. This topic crops up every now and then, whether it's cheap arch-viz in China, overnight cheap cutout and retouche in Thailand or VFX in India doesn't really matter. In general it only has relevance for reasonably sized companies who can afford to have their producers and project managers flying around the globe all the time and can sort out all the other issues for money transactions, taxes, hiring, employee training and whatnot. For smaller shops it is simply unrealistic to hope to accommodate those things without the overhead eating up any potential savings (and then you'd have to find people who speak Chines or Hindi in the first place to act as your liaison and supervisor).

 

I also agree on the quality issues. There's a reason why companies that went this road sometimes nearly ruin themselves 'cos they have to do all the work twice... Those cutouts from Thailand look terrible and the images I saw from the Chinese arch-viz looked like merely library-based stuff without any individual touch. That may work for some cheapskates, but I doubt I could sell this stuff successfully to our clients and keep them convinced that they're getting an exclusive individual treatment... Well, and since to make it look good you have to touch this stuff again anyways, then what's the point of outsourcing it in the first place?

 

Other industries seem to confirm that hypothesis - German machine building companies are retiring from supposedly cheap countries like Poland, Bulgaria and even China, local European shoe manufacturing has some kind of renaissance and in light of the recent Chinese toy scandals, maybe our children will play more with locally produced, environment friendly wooden toys a little more in the future....

 

Mylenium

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I'm hoping to find some information on the quality of work in India that'll open your eyes.

 

Of course this is about VFX, so this entire post is OT, but it's something I like to follow. I've been one of the people saying, 'don't worry' in the past, and I'm still not all that worried. It's not our field, and our field has barriers to export, mainly the short project durations, high level of customization and the general 'not really with-it-ness' of designers compared to VFX supes.

 

Right, now I'm completely set up to find out there's a Troika Chennai opening up. ;)

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For some reason, I feel a bit unease with these topics. It's like any minute I will read a disdainful comment about my country (of course, other people already saw disdainful comments about their countries).

 

 

Mograph is an international forum, right?

 

For what it's worth, I am sorry if this scares anyone... But recent history shows that those who enter markets by price at first, frequently end up becoming exceptionally good in terms of quality in the long term. Canon and Nikon started as cheap rip-offs of Leicas. Same for Honda, Toyota, Subaru. In the 70s nobody wanted the cheap japanese cars . Now they make the Prius.

 

Same for Korea. Recently I was shopping for a widescreen TV, and apparently I am the last idiot who doesn't know Samsung is the main OEM provider for most others, and one of the best with their own products. Even if the latter wasn't true for someone: still, they entered they market by price and now they're a quality brand. Same thing for other Korean brands.

 

Give these guys 10 years, and you may be surprised. I am already aware of a few people in India (in other areas) doing exceptional work.

Edited by Adolfo Rozenfeld

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For what it's worth, I am sorry if this scares anyone... But recent history shows that those who enter markets by price at first, frequently end up becoming exceptionally good in terms of quality in the long term. Canon and Nikon started as cheap rip-offs of Leicas. Same for Honda, Toyota, Subaru. In the 70s nobody wanted the cheap japanese cars . Now they make the Prius.

...

Give these guys 10 years, and you may be surprised. I am already aware of a few people in India (in other areas) doing exceptional work.

 

That may apply on some level, but not always. Since we are talking design, you have to give credit that both its creation and consumption are strongly perceptional things massively influenced by cultural legacy of a given country or place in the world. As much as you may want to - you can be a German and imitate Asian design, but you'll never fully understand its meaning. You can copy the words, but not the language with its grammar.

 

This doesn't mean those guys are worse or better or unsuitable, they're just different which may not always be what clients want. Obviously I can only speak for our clients, but many of them don't outsource their creative stuff even to other European countries for the reasons mentioned. Just this year we had this stink where the German heads were upset 'cos their Spanish underlings had organized and designed a tradeshow booth for themselves and the powers thought it was too flamboyant... Go figure. ;O)

 

Your car design example possibly is also flawed. Toyota has design centers both here in Germany and France, and I would think that the credit for the outer shell has to go to them, so it's European design after all. The same may be true for many of its internal systems which were possibly developed by VDO, Bosch or Conti here in Germany... It may be a "Japanese" car, but with lots of foreign genes already... ;O) Not sure though, would require deeper investigation.

 

Another argument that downright disables your argument about price just incidentally comes to mind just because I saw this report on TV yesterday. It was - hold your pants - about Argentinian farmers buying German Claas harvesting machines, because they are the only ones boasting sufficiently engineered construction and longevity. It was explicitly pointed out that, though products of this make are the most expensive ones on the market, their advantages outweigh the extra cost. So if some not so wealthy Argentinian people are willing to use a 400k machine Claas over a 300k John Deere or whatever, there must be solid reasons and the price not the decisive argument.

 

Mylenium

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I do think though that we should be careful in how we frame things.

 

It's incorrect to say: 'foreigners are stealing our jobs.' companies are simply looking to eliminate overhead. and as long as they can import cheap labor and maintain passable quality they will do so and, as profit driven entities, they are required to do so. let's not forget that these asian and subaltern vfx markets are still developing. they will definitely become more viable as the roots of western investment solidify. as has been said, this has been done for years in other fields. nafta anyone?

 

mylenium i think you are kidding yourself. to say that somehow our process is an inimitable one is an incredibly eurocentric worldview. watch a current korean blockbuster. the only thing that's different from an american one are the actors.

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mylenium i think you are kidding yourself. to say that somehow our process is an inimitable one is an incredibly eurocentric worldview. watch a current korean blockbuster. the only thing that's different from an american one are the actors.

 

I think you mistook my usually somewhat diverting ponderings as specific to the VFX topic, which they were not and of course your point is true then. However, I don't think you could apply this analogy to design in general and that's what I was talking about.

 

Mylenium

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having been down to chennai, you guys would be surpeirsd by how bright and internationally aware people are down there. It's not surprising to hear about, and likely for larger scale work, with the right producer/project managers in India, it might be cost-effective, though the distance and middlemen communication factors will make for some additional stress come crunch time or if the project has large scale issues.

 

philosophically though, the whole corporate profit maximization thing will lead us to an even more feudal society in a few hundred or so years. play monopoly, see how equally things get distributed over the long run

 

we as 'first world' citizens have a ways for our lifestyles to decline if we averaged out all the labor by all the people worldwide... look at switzerland, hard as hell to emigrate there, top of the charts of quality of life and other indicators... and im far from minuteman views

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I'm just glad that people in India can find jobs. Just think if the entire third world were brought into the prosperity that most of us take for granted...and by free market means, no less!

Thats the coolest thing I've heard you say

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I'm just glad that people in India can find jobs. Just think if the entire third world were brought into the prosperity that most of us take for granted...and by free market means, no less!

You are completely wrong my friend. Trust me - indians are getting peanuts and it's not normal ! By doing so, all the other countries and competition will be forced to get slowly but surely to the peanut level of payment and budgets - who is gaining from that "world peace & prosperity idea" - only the big corporations - not the population. Indians will remain poor with this kind of dumping prices and the western world will join them - look what is happening in US with the mortgages and the housing market thanks to outsourcing *.* everything.

 

In conclusion bad for them, bad for us - keyword is exploitation.

That exploitation is meticuosly run by the corporations in the name of large & quick profits for the annual reports, while our governments that suppose to represent our interests are standing with their eyes wide shut, pretending not to see what is really happening. Welcome to globalism.

Edited by Philipstudios

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I actually didn't think the post would spawn political stuff. Naive me. Anyway, I disagree with both sides here. Clint's doing his usual 'fit the facts to the theory' trick to claim that India, long an outright socialist country, has anything like a free market! :D Too funny. As for the usual anti-globalist argument that only big corporations benefit from outsourcing, I don't buy it. It's a long way from Union Carbide and the 1984 Bhopal disaster to training people to do Maya fluids for a film.

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You are completely wrong my friend. Trust me - indians are getting peanuts and it's not normal ! By doing so, all the other countries will be forced to get slowly but surely to the peanut level of payment and budgets - who is gaining from that "world peace & prosperity idea" - only the big corporations - not the population. Indians will remain poor with this kind of dumping prices and the western world will join them - look what is happening in US with the mortgages and the housing market thanks to outsourcing *.* everything.

 

In conclusion bad for them, bad for us - keyword is exploitation.

Exploitation run by the corporation in the name of quick profit for the annual reports, while our governments that suppose to represent our interests are standing with their eyes wide shut, pretending not to see what is really happen. Welcome to globalism.

 

A bit one-sided, I think. Higher qualification means higher pay even in those countries and in the long run it has quite an influence on the economic and social structure. Better-paid people are able to spend more money in their own countries which in turn helps local economy and allows other people to make a better living. You see, production cost in China has risen by 2000% and more already for some products, and while it may merely represent a jump from 1 Cent to 3 Cents, it says something about the whole matter. Give it a few years and some iterations of 2000%, it may no longer be as cheap to produce stuff there as it was 10 years ago. Agreed, it's still peanuts to us, but eventually it will be a measurable factor and then, as funy as it is, big companies will start thinking...

 

Mylenium

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