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silatix

economy in crisis..

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From that link:

 

"...the case for slashing government and restoring a system of sound money based on gold..."

 

Stopped me dead in my tracks. That there's crankland.

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BTW, I've listened to both the Bill Moyers and This American Life podcasts that were recommended in this thread and I would add my vote that both should be required listening for everyone. Excellent journalism.

 

 

i subscribe to the coast to coast podcast. if you can get past the idea that g.w. bush is of a reptilian race, the sept. 17th episode has david icke on there, and he talks about predicting EXACTLY what ira glass was broadcasting.

 

pm me, and ill send you a link.

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From that link:

 

"...the case for slashing government and restoring a system of sound money based on gold..."

 

Stopped me dead in my tracks. That there's crankland.

 

 

I have to laugh when talk of money based on gold gets lambasted as KookyTownzTM while at the same time there has been very honest real talk about using $700bil of discretionary money to bailout banks. Rumplestiltskin was just a fairy tail, gold cannot be spun of straw, but alchemy is very real when it comes to discretionary money. I heard people saying this was $700bil of tax payer money. Where was the part about raising taxes to come up with the $700bil? I didn't see that anywhere in the plan. Where is this $700bil coming from exactly? Oh that's right, out of thin fucking air! So the alchemists magically create $700bil dollars to pay off bad debts therefore introducing $700bil more dollars to dilute the purchasing power of the dollars. That's fucking KookyTM man! It's like paying off my maxed out credit card with my other maxed out credit card. Why stop at $700bil? Why not a trillion? A gazillion?

 

Kooky is as Kooky does in Crankland. But last I remembered Crankland is the place where money can be conjured out of thin air.

 

I think of these as being somewhat too convenient excuses for not taking the time to follow events closely. Or even not closely, because the simplest case is a big number: One trillion dollars. If there's no difference between the parties, than there's no difference between one trillion dollars and one penny, because that's the difference between going into Iraq and not going into Iraq. Dems wouldn't have, Republicans did. I've yet to find a person who thinks that one trillion equals a penny, not surprisingly, and yet I hear the mantra of 'there's no difference between the parties' all the time.

 

A trillion? A penny? What does it matter when Rumplestiltskin exists? Well I guess it matters once our foreign lenders realize they'll be payed back in fools gold.

 

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Definitely worth having a banking crisis if it stirs Fred into going ten rounds with Govinda

 

(ignorant question: is there enough gold in the world for the Fed to hold the equivalent value of all the dollar bills out there? there might have been in the 60s, but the economy has grown quite a lot since then. Also, when the dollar was backed by gold, it didn't stop the great depression. But hey, what do I know?)

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The Fed needs to be dismantled. Not only is it not actually a government organization that has any sort of oversight but they actually charge the federal government interest on their own money. WHAT?!

Also it is run by a group of PRIVATE bankers who stand to make money off of causing run-away inflation and fleecing our own government.

 

There would have been enough gold to back the dollar if the Fed hadn't engaged in market manipulation and just printed more money over the past half century. (Remember Germany post-WWI?)

 

The great depression was actually caused by the Federal Reserve printing more money and attempting to "mitigate" the situation. If things had actually been left alone the extent of the damage would have been brief and limited.

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(ignorant question: is there enough gold in the world for the Fed to hold the equivalent value of all the dollar bills out there? there might have been in the 60s, but the economy has grown quite a lot since then.

 

I think that's true. There would certainly be major technical issues in going to a value based currency in today's world. There's actually an interesting debate from 1983 between Ron Paul (an advocate of the gold standard) and Charles Partee (a member of the Federal Reserve Board at the time, and a proponent of fiat money) that you can watch here. It's pretty long, but an intensely honest, balanced, and interesting debate on the issue.

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Okay, anyone for going back on the gold standard, I have some barrels for you to wear as you stand by the railroad track, and a beat up harmonica to play as you wait. Oh wait, we won't have any trains, because our economy will be in the stone age. Trim another seven or eight trillllllllllion off the economy, no problem. All for it.

 

Anyone want to understand why we're able to float our currency far beyond the actual assets of our government should take a second, just a second, and read up on a few things. Start with the Bretton Woods agreement, and then progress to the 1971 shakeup of that agreement, whatever that was called, the one where we were essentially handed the leadership of the world for at least two generations (or until three or four consecutive feckless Presidents, of which we've now had the first).

 

Here's a quickie on something that confuses people quite a bit. China holds a lot of our debt. Wow, China! The enemy! Should we worry?

 

Noooo. Not really. China can't just go and sell off our debt (which is to say spend the dollars they've accrued because Chinese companies have sold a lot more than Chinese companies have bought). If they spend the money, they throw gas onto the fires of inflation in their cities. They absolutely can't have that. They fear nothing more than that. Inflation, as anyone who's lived in Brazil can attest, is a hugely destabilizing force politically. The government of China doesn't think it'd survive massive unrest without being overthrown. So they hold onto our dollars, and we keep shipping them over (by buying their cheap products at Target and WalMart). It's mutally assured destruction. It's an equilibrium that'll hold for many more years. It won't be unwound overnight. Why does a government spending money create inflation? It throws billions of dollars into an economy, meaning that simply put each dollar becomes worth less. There are some interest rate effects that're too complicated and which I've forgotten anyway, but that's about 75% of the story right there.

 

But, if we don't do some kind of bailout within a week or so, all bets are off in that last paragraph. Can we just forget the anger and recognize when things go bad for alllll our banks, we're fecked.

 

Ron Paul, good god. Are there really intelligent beings who put any faith in anything that loon says? Abolish the UN! Abolish this! Abolish that! Gold standard! It's the Medicine Show all over again.

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Curious to read your citations for these claims. Runaway inflation, Fed charging interest to the government, the Great Depression caused by the Fed 'printing money'... all interesting claims. I'm not sure I agree with you a hundred percent on your police work, there, Lou.

 

Not only is it not actually a government organization that has any sort of oversight but they actually charge the federal government interest on their own money. WHAT?!

Also it is run by a group of PRIVATE bankers who stand to make money off of causing run-away inflation and fleecing our own government.

 

There would have been enough gold to back the dollar if the Fed hadn't engaged in market manipulation and just printed more money over the past half century. (Remember Germany post-WWI?)

 

The great depression was actually caused by the Federal Reserve printing more money and attempting to "mitigate" the situation. If things had actually been left alone the extent of the damage would have been brief and limited.

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Guest Sao_Bento
More on the gold standard, by a guy I believe implicitly, Brad DeLong:

 

http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/Politics/...ldstandard.html

My Mom and Dad were saying that in the Midwest, the popular stance amongst radio commentators and a growing amount of citizenry is “No bailout / no nothing - don't do anything, just let them rot”. It's really the first I've heard of someone advocating that position.

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Curious to read your citations for these claims. Runaway inflation, Fed charging interest to the government, the Great Depression caused by the Fed 'printing money'... all interesting claims. I'm not sure I agree with you a hundred percent on your police work, there, Lou.

 

i think i heard all of this on coast to coast. fact.

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@ govinda

 

Fred couldn't have worded it better. Although i kinda agree a currency solely based on gold might not be so smart, at least have some tangible asset to back your currency.

Digital money creation out of thin air IS the work of a fucking fairytale witchdoctor.

 

A system based on exponential and infinite growth, in an environment that has limited resources is simply ridiculous. Even a 12-year old should be able to understand that. The current state of economics is to dilute the basic premise of supply and demand by creating interest, debt, and derivates.

 

Who is going to pay it back? That's right, the poor, and the have nots. How? War. Famine. Unemployment. (on a global scale)

It's as simple as that. The economy is as closed a system as thermodynamics is, even though modern economists want you to think otherwise.

 

To quote Kenneth Boulding: "Anyone who believes exponential growth can go on forever in a finite world is either a madman or an economist."

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Ok, at this point the thing I'm mainly pissed about is the dicks trying to sell this thing with the line "Hey, it could even MAKE money!" No one is making any money off a bunch of toxic mortgage backed securities, that's why the banks are trying to get rid of them! Yeah, I mean duh, politicians lie to get their way, no surprise there, but this just seems a little too obvious.

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My Mom and Dad were saying that in the Midwest, the popular stance amongst radio commentators and a growing amount of citizenry is “No bailout / no nothing - don't do anything, just let them rot”. It's really the first I've heard of someone advocating that position.

OMG it looks like people from the Midwest and

finally agree on something!

 

-m

 

*ALSO: If I hear one more turn of phrase comparing big cities to the Midwest by referencing "Wall St. vs Main St." my head is going to f*cking explode.

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Although i kinda agree a currency solely based on gold might not be so smart, at least have some tangible asset to back your currency.

Hmmm... tangible assets of value...

Porn? Tacos?

 

Or no...wait, wait... I think I like where Govinda's going with this.

Instead of seeking reliable standards for measuring value... lets use the dynamic expansion of the US Financial System for all our measurement! From now on my dayrate will shift between $1-$700bn a day! I will submit renders somewhere between 1-700bn FPS. Each frame will be between 1-700bn pixels in size!

 

Wow! This is fun!

No wonder people get into government economics!

 

;)

 

-m

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Okay, for all you 'tangible asset' guys talking about gold, explain to me the 'tangibility' of gold. No need to make this an open paragraph question, how about multiple choice.

 

Gold should back our currency because:

 

-A- It always has.

-B- It's hugely fundamental as something everyone uses in the economy. For example, my car runs on gold, which I buy at the Chevron Gold station on the corner.

-C- All the best teeth caps are made of it, and if they use it, hey, it must be worth something.

Tell me it's not A, please tell me it's not A. And if you said A, tell me how that's different than paper money, how gold in other words relies on anything other than perceptions of stability and repayment, same as, you know, paper money.

 

Now if you want to switch to something that DOES have demand as a commodity, and you're thinking about oil, I have another hand free for some smackin'!

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