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jazman

Joe The Plumber?

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So do I understand this correctly? That guy Joe is not a licensed plumber, he lied when he told Obama after the rally that he was buying a business making over $250,000 a year and his name is Sam?

 

The McCain campaign really goofed on that one.

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Yeah, amazing what you can dig up when you investigate someone. Just look at all the investigations into Obama's shady connections -- ooops, guess there aren't any of those. Never mind.

 

When someone does the media's job for them and brings up some facts about the Obamessiah's past or his minions, they get conveniently thrown under the bus. Pretty soon he's gonna need this bus to fit 'em all under it:

 

20060325-desertstorm.jpg

 

Between his family, his pastor, his political sponsors, ACORN, Ayers, etc... I know it's racist for me to point it out, but what the heck. I'll just sit here clinging bitterly to my Bible and guns and wait for the Obama "Truth Squads" to show up.

 

Cf

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Guest Sao_Bento
Yeah, amazing what you can dig up when you investigate someone. Just look at all the investigations into Obama's shady connections -- ooops, guess there aren't any of those. Never mind.

 

When someone does the media's job for them and brings up some facts about the Obamessiah's past or his minions, they get conveniently thrown under the bus. Pretty soon he's gonna need this bus to fit 'em all under it:

 

20060325-desertstorm.jpg

 

Between his family, his pastor, his political sponsors, ACORN, Ayers, etc... I know it's racist for me to point it out, but what the heck. I'll just sit here clinging bitterly to my Bible and guns and wait for the Obama "Truth Squads" to show up.

 

Cf

It would be much easier to take your opinions seriously if you didn't include every right wing talking point. That telegraphs that you're not thinking rationally about it, but just repeating the Fox News knee jerk reaction. If you think that the right wingers haven't examined everything Obama has done with a microscope, you're nuts. It comes down the fact that most people did not think that what they dug up was compelling. Sorry, but no one said life was fair. The point of this topic is that the McCain campaign is poorly run, regardless of anything else. Do you have any insight to add to that which doesn't require blaming someone else?

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Yeah, amazing what you can dig up when you investigate someone. Just look at all the investigations into Obama's shady connections -- ooops, guess there aren't any of those. Never mind.

 

When someone does the media's job for them and brings up some facts about the Obamessiah's past or his minions, they get conveniently thrown under the bus. Pretty soon he's gonna need this bus to fit 'em all under it:

 

20060325-desertstorm.jpg

 

Between his family, his pastor, his political sponsors, ACORN, Ayers, etc... I know it's racist for me to point it out, but what the heck. I'll just sit here clinging bitterly to my Bible and guns and wait for the Obama "Truth Squads" to show up.

 

Cf

you gotta love the token republicans

 

how are santa and the easter bunny doing?

 

hows your precious home value doing? hows your free market economy doing? do you take any consolation that CEO's of the failed banks are still able to walk with some millions? how about the 1 million dead iraqi's you get to take credit for excusing. the rest of the world will remember this period of american stupidity and aggression and you can tell your grandkids you supported and apologized for these policies.

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you gotta love the token republicans

 

how are santa and the easter bunny doing?

 

hows your precious home value doing? hows your free market economy doing? do you take any consolation that CEO's of the failed banks are still able to walk with some millions? how about the 1 million dead iraqi's you get to take credit for excusing. the rest of the world will remember this period of american stupidity and aggression and you can tell your grandkids you supported and apologized for these policies.

I'll mention again the comparison of Free Market Republicans to Communists - both groups stubbornly cling to utopian ideals which have never been shown to work in a practical sense.

 

I also find it ironic that many of the staunch supporters of free markets (which are analogous to "survival of the fittest") are the same people who don't believe in evolution.

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I'll mention again the comparison of Free Market Republicans to Communists - both groups stubbornly cling to utopian ideals which have never been shown to work in a practical sense.

 

I also find it ironic that many of the staunch supporters of free markets (which are analogous to "survival of the fittest") are the same people who don't believe in evolution.

 

Well, you can't fit everyone into a box, especially this election year. The last time I voted, I voted for President Bush. This year I'm voting for Obama who I didn't vote for in the Primary's. For me it comes down to a very famous Reagan saying which surprisingly I haven't heard much this year: "Are you better off now than you were 8 years ago?".

 

FYI, I believe in Creation.

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FYI, I believe in Creation.

And the Vatican believes in evolution. Neither concept is mutually exclusive unless you're letting the American religious nutballs tell you how to think.

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And the Vatican believes in evolution. Neither concept is mutually exclusive unless you're letting the American religious nutballs tell you how to think.

 

 

couldnt have said it better myself.

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And the Vatican believes in evolution. Neither concept is mutually exclusive unless you're letting the American religious nutballs tell you how to think.

 

I'm not concerned what the Vatican believes. What the two have in common is both require faith. You've taken my original post way off topic but since we're here...

 

Evolution is not a science. Like Creation, some man/men told you this is how it went down or happens, but it can't be observed so no scientific conclusion can be drawn (remember your science project). You can't observe it or prove it yet you believe it because a man told you (how to think). It supposedly takes millions of years to happen so I'm quite sure that you can't name one creature that you have seen physically evolve. If you feel the need to reply, perhaps this should be split off from the other topic.

 

Oh and I'm not a nutball. I think it rather foolish to believe that all this happened by chance.

Edited by jazman

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I'm not concerned what the Vatican believes. What the two have in common is both require faith. You've taken my original post way off topic but since we're here...

 

Evolution is not a science. Like Creation, some man/men told you this is how it went down or happens, but it can't be observed so no scientific conclusion can be drawn (remember your science project). You can't observe it or prove it yet you believe it because a man told you (how to think). It supposedly takes millions of years to happen so I'm quite sure that you can't name one creature that you have seen physically evolve. If you feel the need to reply, perhaps this should be split off from the other topic.

 

Oh and I'm not a nutball. I think it rather foolish to believe that all this happened by chance.

Evolution is not a science - you are correct, it is a scientific theory supported by research. You can observe it quite easily. Your comment about seeing something physically evolve makes it clear that you are one of the people I spoke about who lacks even a rudimentary understanding of the world. I'm sure you pride yourself in your unwavering aversion to reason or rational thought, so I won't dare try to talk you out of the divine glory that I'm sure awaits you upon your demise. Good day.

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It would be much easier to take your opinions seriously if you didn't include every right wing talking point. That telegraphs that you're not thinking rationally about it, but just repeating the Fox News knee jerk reaction. If you think that the right wingers haven't examined everything Obama has done with a microscope, you're nuts. It comes down the fact that most people did not think that what they dug up was compelling. Sorry, but no one said life was fair. The point of this topic is that the McCain campaign is poorly run, regardless of anything else. Do you have any insight to add to that which doesn't require blaming someone else?

 

For the record, I don't watch FOX News.

 

I'm not saying that the "right wingers" haven't gone thru Obama's past with a fine-toothed comb. But does it get any attention in the major newspapers or national television? Nope...heck, they're covering for the guy, making excuses for him when they have to, and burying the stories when possible.

 

If you think I'm blowing smoke, look at the Obamessiah timeline. Early on, it was "tax the evil rich." Then later on, it was "tax the evil corporations." A little closer to November, it's "spread the wealth." Now it's "tax cuts!" Why? Because his socialist policy ideas will NOT fly. America doesn't want them.

 

Again, if there's nothing wrong with Bill Ayers, why are they trying so hard to minimize him? Let Obama get up there and claim him and his radicalism. If there's nothing wrong with his Black Liberation Theology church and wackjob preacher, why is he backing away from them so badly? Let Obama grab a podium and say "yeah, that's right...that's my church and this is my spiritual mentor." His sole "experience" to qualify him for the job was his status as a "community organizer", yet it's those same "community organizers" that are being investigated for voter fraud in nearly a THIRD of the states in the union. So again, he claims he never had anything to do with them. Why? Most people won't stand for it.

 

It's the same as all the other ultra-left nuts. Expose their beliefs to the light of day, and they go scurrying. That's why you see 'em all nearly become Republicans for a week prior to the election, promising tax cuts and grooming their patriotism. The day they go out and proclaim what they REALLY believe and the direction they would REALLY like to take this country, and you have another 49 state landslide against them.

 

Cf

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Oh and I'm not a nutball. I think it rather foolish to believe that all this happened by chance.

 

If you think the theory of evolution is that "all this happened by chance" then you don't understand the theory. Either that or you're a nutball.

 

Why Evolution Isn't Chance

 

 

I don't really care if people decide to believe in God or not, to each his own in my opinion - but EVERYONE, no matter what their beliefs, should at least have a general understanding of both sides of the fence before they make their choice. Anything less would be blind faith. And blind faith = believing something "because a man told you (how to think)".

Edited by beau+++

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For the record, I don't watch FOX News.

 

I'm not saying that the "right wingers" haven't gone thru Obama's past with a fine-toothed comb. But does it get any attention in the major newspapers or national television? Nope...heck, they're covering for the guy, making excuses for him when they have to, and burying the stories when possible.

 

If you think I'm blowing smoke, look at the Obamessiah timeline. Early on, it was "tax the evil rich." Then later on, it was "tax the evil corporations." A little closer to November, it's "spread the wealth." Now it's "tax cuts!" Why? Because his socialist policy ideas will NOT fly. America doesn't want them.

 

Again, if there's nothing wrong with Bill Ayers, why are they trying so hard to minimize him? Let Obama get up there and claim him and his radicalism. If there's nothing wrong with his Black Liberation Theology church and wackjob preacher, why is he backing away from them so badly? Let Obama grab a podium and say "yeah, that's right...that's my church and this is my spiritual mentor." His sole "experience" to qualify him for the job was his status as a "community organizer", yet it's those same "community organizers" that are being investigated for voter fraud in nearly a THIRD of the states in the union. So again, he claims he never had anything to do with them. Why? Most people won't stand for it.

 

It's the same as all the other ultra-left nuts. Expose their beliefs to the light of day, and they go scurrying. That's why you see 'em all nearly become Republicans for a week prior to the election, promising tax cuts and grooming their patriotism. The day they go out and proclaim what they REALLY believe and the direction they would REALLY like to take this country, and you have another 49 state landslide against them.

 

Cf

I'm just saying that it's an incredible coincidence that you use the exact same lines of attack parroted by every limbaugh, hannity, etc. That's the part that bothers me - it doesn't sound like it's your own opinion. In any event, if there is all this bad stuff and American doesn't want Obama's policies, etc. Why is he so far ahead in the polls? (even Fox News polls). How do you explain all that? If I understand what you're saying - you're saying that there is all this bad stuff, but the media won't cover it. Does that mean that you feel there's a media conspiracy to install a president against the will of the country?

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Does that mean that you feel there's a media conspiracy to install a president against the will of the country?

 

 

Oh shit, David Icke was right! Reptilian shapeshifters are amoung us.

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That's why you see 'em all nearly become Republicans for a week prior to the election, promising tax cuts and grooming their patriotism.

 

when was patriotism exclusively republican? what was patriotic about Dubya? fascism isn't patriotic...

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Alright, I was going to leave this alone after my last comments but this post really bothered me.

 

I'm not concerned what the Vatican believes. What the two have in common is both require faith.

 

Let's take a look at the definition of "faith" shall we?

 

faith –noun

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing.

2. belief that is not based on proof.

 

Like Sao said, "Evolution is not a science - you are correct, it is a scientific theory supported by research. You can observe it quite easily." I'll add to that. Know what else is a scientific theory? Gravity, for one. No one can prove to you that gravity exists, but there's a hell of a lot of testable evidence to suggest it does exist. The difference here is that there isn't one shred of testable evidence to help support the Creation theory (before anyone's panties get in a knot, read on, I'll get back to this point). When scientific theories are brought forward that have no testable evidence (and no way of ever attaining testable evidence) they are tossed to the wayside. But for some reason Creationism still persists. The Intelligent Design community, like the Flat Earth Society before it, exist and flourish for the simple reason that their members don't bother to actually understand the theories they so readily deny. You wouldn't call Gravity "Intelligent Falling" would you? Of course not, because you've actually bothered to learn the theory of Gravity, most likely because your High School was able to teach it to you uncontested. If only schools could teach more legitimate theories in Science class without also being forced to teach theories that somehow exist outside of science (it should be noted that there also isn't any proof or evidence to support the idea of anything existing outside of science).

 

Creationism and Evolution and Gravity may all require a degree of Faith as defined above (none of us can actually SEE the process of gravity), but the difference is that Creationism isn't just a "belief that is not based on proof", it is a "belief that is not based on proof or evidence." - Blind Faith.

 

 

(ugh...I have visitors, I'll finish this tomorrow).

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Alright, I was going to leave this alone after my last comments but this post really bothered me.

Let's take a look at the definition of "faith" shall we?

 

faith –noun

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing.

2. belief that is not based on proof.

It's really a pointless argument. It's quite easy to find very detailed, reasoned arguments on intelligent design vs. science, so why cover old ground again? People with the kind of viewpoint jazman has expressed are incapable of seeing any other point of view on this subject. Their entire stance is based upon their belief in their own point of view, so the act of even considering alternates would be an admission of failure for them, which is why I kept my response short. It's a waste of time. There is nothing you can say to prove him wrong or change his mind.

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You just disputed your own faith dude.

 

Actually I didn't. Creation and all of the biblical principals for a Christian are received by faith. The definition of faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".

 

It's really a pointless argument. It's quite easy to find very detailed, reasoned arguments on intelligent design vs. science, so why cover old ground again? People with the kind of viewpoint jazman has expressed are incapable of seeing any other point of view on this subject. Their entire stance is based upon their belief in their own point of view, so the act of even considering alternates would be an admission of failure for them, which is why I kept my response short. It's a waste of time. There is nothing you can say to prove him wrong or change his mind.

 

You're partly right Bento. I am convinced in my faith and I can't be persuaded otherwise. But the same can be said for you. It's not worth my time either to try and convince you. Right now you don't have the ability nor the capacity to understand what I'm saying. Anything that pertains to faith in the Bible or to God is "spiritually understood".

 

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

 

So in essence we are wasting each others time but you took a post about politics and tried to pick a fight and I rarely back down from a fight. I don't care really what you think about me because you don't even know me. You don't even know what race I am yet you speak as though you have a clue. But there is one thing that you know now. I will never closet what I believe because it's unpopular on a mostly liberal board or anywhere else. The same way that you and others can proudly profess your belief in evolution is the same that I will profess my beliefs. And you have to ask yourself, how liberal are you when you can be so dismissive to another man's faith as if you had all the answers?

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Actually I didn't. Creation and all of the biblical principals for a Christian are received by faith. The definition of faith is "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen".

You're partly right Bento. I am convinced in my faith and I can't be persuaded otherwise. But the same can be said for you. It's not worth my time either to try and convince you. Right now you don't have the ability nor the capacity to understand what I'm saying. Anything that pertains to faith in the Bible or to God is "spiritually understood".

 

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

 

So in essence we are wasting each others time but you took a post about politics and tried to pick a fight and I rarely back down from a fight. I don't care really what you think about me because you don't even know me. You don't even know what race I am yet you speak as though you have a clue. But there is one thing that you know now. I will never closet what I believe because it's unpopular on a mostly liberal board or anywhere else. The same way that you and others can proudly profess your belief in evolution is the same that I will profess my beliefs. And you have to ask yourself, how liberal are you when you can be so dismissive to another man's faith as if you had all the answers?

It's not your faith that makes me dismiss you, it's your demonstrated inability to get the point. There is a whole big world of ideas out there - you should check it out sometime.

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So do I understand this correctly? That guy Joe is not a licensed plumber, he lied when he told Obama after the rally that he was buying a business making over $250,000 a year and his name is Sam?

 

The McCain campaign really goofed on that one.

 

is a fake political ad my buddy made late last night for Joe. Yesterday he was recording a VO guy for a real ad and had him read this fake script then posted this vid in the wee hours. It already has an ass load of hits and the comments section is on fire with crazies that apparently have no sense of humor.

 

The "non-Joe" topic:

 

As Sao said, people can bitch about faith vs. Evo till the cows come home. But at the very root is a fundamental difference:

 

Faith method: Minds are made up based on what they feel is already the answer to all questions as set in stone.

 

Scientific method: The story never ends or stays the same as evidence changes and theories are proven wrong.

 

Also I feel there is a misuse of the word "Faith". There is a difference between faith and probability.

 

It is often said by people of faith "You have faith everytime you leave the house that you'll come home safe".

 

That's not faith. That's the sub-conscience making a decision based on probability that it will be a safe round trip. Because there is a good probability that it will be okay.

 

Faith is if there were gunmen surrounding your house telling you they will shoot you dead if you step outside. Yet you do it anyways because you have Faith (against good probability) that god will protect you.

 

Then you get shot.

 

 

Evolution by chance: As Biggy Boy Beau pointed out that's not remotely how it works. It's more like the way a neural network works. Random information is filtered. That filtering changes how the input data changes in creating more order. It's used in programming all the time. Where more order is created out of the right filtering.

 

There's been simple life algorithms that show this in very simple terms. A well known one had a few instances of a random line being drawn on the screen. Then the computer randomly sprays the screen with flies. The 2 random lines that caught the most flies had their "traits" combined in random ways. Then that had "Offspring". So the offspring were all collectively slightly better than the previous generation at catching flies. The computer ran many iterations of this. And after a while , guess what pattern emerged as the most efficient ways to trap flies? A spider web shape.

 

So out of a simple system of random input being shaped by a filter created order that seemed designed. This is a simple program that isn't a literal answer to how all of evolution works, but it demonstrates one facet of it. So in evolution you can imagine the filter is changing conditions of habitat and who survives the best. That's why antibiotics stop working after a while. From observable evolution. If someone kills off 90% of the bacteria, they just created a filter that killed of the weakest and left the strongest. Then only the stronngest replicate making a bacteria that is one step stronger than the previous generation until a year or two later there are new strains that are immune to anti-biotics.

 

If it was all just chance, then I can see why people would be doubtful. Then that often used but completely incorrect saying, "Life by chance is like a tornado hitting a junkyard and making a 747" would actually have some truth. But it doesn't. All that line does is make clear which people don't know the basics of evolution.

 

But even if it WAS just by chance. There is still the anthropic principle you would have to get through before trying to justify a devine being being involved.

Edited by C.Smith

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Just to add to what C.Smith said:

 

Evolution is pretty close to fact if you understand it correctly. Anyone who argues that it requires the same 'leap of faith' as believing in a supernatural paternal figure, doesn't understand the theory of evolution even at the most superficial level.

 

The Earth is billions of years old. FACT.

Genetic mutations occur. FACT.

Common genes and their mutations can be traced back through generations and divisions of species. FACT.

The more genetically fit an organism is for survival, the longer it will survive to reproduce and spread its genetic material. FACT.

 

Given even just those 4 facts, an intelligent person can deduce that evolution does not happen by chance, it HAS to happen.

 

If the very religious understood the theory of evolution, they would realize it makes their God look like even more of a genius. What is more elegant than a God who designs a system that, after one explosion, self-assembles to create living mechanical and chemical organizational systems of such incredible complexity? Personal paradigms of evolution and faith CAN exist side-by-side.

Edited by Albert Omoss

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