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jazman

Joe The Plumber?

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how did this thread start up gain without me!

 

"You are the product of causes that have no purpose or meaning. Your origin, your growth, your hopes, fears, loves, beliefs are the outcome of accidental collections of atoms. No fire, heroism, or intensity of thought or feeling can preserve your life from beyond the grave. All the devotion, all the inspiration, all the labor of the ages are destined for extinction in the vast death of the solar system. The whole temple of human achievement must inevitably be buried in the debris of a universe in ruins. That's what we are all headed for." - Bertrand Russell

 

Science has taught us the world has no meaning or purpose. So what Science cannot answer cannot be answered at all? I've seen way too much in my little time on this earth to know that this isn't true.

 

Love, hope, our dreams and wants...cannot be scientifically proven. There isn't a formula to tell me why I love my wife, or what made me fall in love with her. There isn't a test or experiment that will tell me why I joined my local fire dept. and risk my life to run into a burning building to help someone. Love exists. Faith exists. Faith is being able to trust.

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Love, hope, our dreams and wants...cannot be scientifically proven. There isn't a formula to tell me why I love my wife, or what made me fall in love with her. There isn't a test or experiment that will tell me why I joined my local fire dept. and risk my life to run into a burning building to help someone. Love exists. Faith exists. Faith is being able to trust.

 

And faith is personal, not universal. It might exist for you but not others.

 

Science is not here to prove the theory behind "love", but it is here to prove certain things in life that don't make sense without research.

 

Love & faith might exist for you, but not for others, like I said before. These are all internal feelings that are connected via the insides of a person. No one can take a peek at your thoughts and real feelings. That's the beauty of humans........and obviously we have downsides.

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Science has taught us the world has no meaning or purpose. So what Science cannot answer cannot be answered at all? I've seen way too much in my little time on this earth to know that this isn't true.

 

What do you define purpose as? There's a ton of purpose in everything. Do you mean your own belief's purpose of getting admission to Heaven? When you save from people from fires do you not have a purpose to save their lives?

 

I love the shit out of my wife and kid, and knowing that that feeling may be electrical, chemical, hormonal, etc doesn't change anything. Believing that an overlord is judging me for a reward doesn't change one single thing either or add any kind of extra purpose.

 

Some people are happy to live IN the "Matrix" and believe in all the feelings and put a full stop on the idea of anything more being behind them pulling the strings. Then some people want to see the Matrix's numbers so-to-speak.

 

We all know that magician's use technical tricks to create illusions. There will be part of the audience that believes in the hocus pocus. And there will be the part of the audience that knows there is a simple, technical answer but enjoy it just the same.

 

Neither is right or wrong. Sometimes, I wish I could accept things as the way I WANT them to be. But I can't. Especially when there's nothing concrete to support it.

 

I'd love to have faith that I can die and play video games and drive fast cars with my family forever, but that's not likely. So I enjoy my time now.

 

And science to me IS spirituality. The reality of the cosmos and the beauties of the way nature works are far, far greater than any man made stories of life, gods, and forever that I've ever read.

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And faith is personal, not universal. It might exist for you but not others.

 

Science is not here to prove the theory behind "love", but it is here to prove certain things in life that don't make sense without research.

 

Love & faith might exist for you, but not for others, like I said before. These are all internal feelings that are connected via the insides of a person. No one can take a peek at your thoughts and real feelings. That's the beauty of humans........and obviously we have downsides.

 

Science is not here to prove the theory behind love? Why not? This is a clear reason why I believe in God. How can you say Love doesn't exist? How can you say faith doesn't exist? Why do you believe that when you die nothing will be there? because you have 100% faith in science. Faith exists for everyone. Once we are reduced to atoms the IDEA of the person is gone.

 

So if we are only our brain functions, that is the illusion. There is no mind, no soul, no moral agent.

 

-How does this explain the human condition?

 

-How does evolution explain individual importance (why i'd risk my existence running into a burning house to save another)?

 

but what Science cannot prove, science cannot answer at all.......Love, Justice, Consciences must not exist then.

Edited by anthonyc

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Science is not here to prove the theory behind love? Why not? This is a clear reason why I believe in God. How can you say Love doesn't exist? How can you say faith doesn't exist? Why do you believe that when you die nothing will be there? because you have 100% faith in science. Faith exists for everyone. Once we are reduced to atoms the IDEA of the person is gone.

 

So if we are only our brain functions, that is the illusion. There is no mind, no soul, no moral agent.

 

-How does this explain the human condition?

 

-How does evolution explain individual importance (why i'd risk my existence running into a burning house to save another)?

 

but what Science cannot prove, science cannot answer at all.......Love, Justice, Consciences must not exist then.

Again, people do not have "faith" in science. Get off your ass and do the work. All your questions were answered, or argued out to truly valid questions hundreds based on reasoned positions of years ago. I hate to poison Shangri-La here, but every time you set a keyframe, then hit RAM preview, then adjust the keyframe some more, you're using the scientific method - is that how you do it or do you simply have faith that the keyframes will work out?

 

Of course there are things we don't know. That's what it's all about - the journey, not the destination.

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Science is not here to prove the theory behind love? Why not? This is a clear reason why I believe in God. How can you say Love doesn't exist? How can you say faith doesn't exist? Why do you believe that when you die nothing will be there? because you have 100% faith in science. Faith exists for everyone. Once we are reduced to atoms the IDEA of the person is gone.

I feel like we're just repeating ourselves because you haven't read the whole thread (or didn't understand it). There is no Faith (in your traditional sense) in Science. Go back to the start of the thread to read why, I'm not going in circles with you.

 

There is no mind

 

Correct. There is a brain.

 

There is...no soul

 

Correct. There is a body. When it dies, "we" die. "We" ARE our bodies, and nothing more.

 

There is... no moral agent.

 

Correct. Morality exists independently of a deity. It is an evolutionarily beneficial trait, and therefore is passed on through generations. People who are perceived as "immoral" are generally removed from the gene pool. Exceptions occur, which is why "immorality" still exists after all these years, though in smaller numbers than "morality".

 

I'd suggest checking out Dawkins' lecture titled "Design vs. Designoid" and reading a bit of The God Delusion if you can get past the title. He doesn't touch on this example specifically in the lecture, but it still applies. It is (and always has been) evolutionarily beneficial for living organisms to imagine inanimate or imaginary objects as being alive or "real", and to imagine objects that SEEM designed as actually BEING designed by an unseen designer. Ever been startled by your own shadow, or a mask hanging on a wall? Organisms that were more easily startled were the ones that lived long enough to procreate and contribute to the next generation. Organisms that weren't as easily startled by inanimate or imaginary objects weren't as likely to survive. Millions of years later, we look at complex things like weather patterns or the sun moving across the sky, and we perceive it as being "designed", having "purpose", or in some cases as being "alive".

 

THIS is where religion comes from - not from a deity that has given it to us as a gift, but from the misfiring of our human brain's evolutionarily (otherwise) beneficial traits. Things like "Love, Justice, and Consciences" DO exist, but they are not designed, they are designoid.

 

 

(edited to clarify why I say there isn't faith in science even though I said there is in my first second post in the thread. I'm not being hypocritical, I'm talking about two different versions of "faith" - Faith vs. Blind Faith)

Edited by beau+++

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-How does evolution explain individual importance (why i'd risk my existence running into a burning house to save another)?

 

How does evolution NOT explain this? You're contributing to the group as a whole, risking your life to save another so that the species may benefit. The risk is that you may both die and therefore the species is worse off being two members smaller, but evolution is not a steady uphill climb - sometimes it progresses, sometimes it stands still for millions of years, and sometimes it regresses.

 

I really don't understand how your question relates to a belief in a God or how it pertains to this conversation. Maybe I misunderstood?

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How does evolution NOT explain this? You're contributing to the group as a whole, risking your life to save another so that the species may benefit. The risk is that you may both die and therefore the species is worse off being two members smaller, but evolution is not a steady uphill climb - sometimes it progresses, sometimes it stands still for millions of years, and sometimes it regresses.

 

I really don't understand how your question relates to a belief in a God or how it pertains to this conversation. Maybe I misunderstood?

 

no offense but i this is no different from some radical christian misquoting the bible so it fits his/her needs....evolution has nothing to do with the conscience. it has nothing to do with how we act as a people, to know right from wrong......that hasn't evolved. The fact of Right and Wrong...has not changed over time. It's funny that humans are the only ones who have this ability.

 

I also like how you put everything into Dawkins...and it's crazy that I believe in Jesus's teachings? How i'm uneducated and because you choose not to believe you are intellectually superior? I should read more....huh. Stupid me.

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no offense but i this is no different from some radical christian misquoting the bible so it fits his/her needs....evolution has nothing to do with the conscience. it has nothing to do with how we act as a people, to know right from wrong......that hasn't evolved. The fact of Right and Wrong...has not changed over time. It's funny that humans are the only ones who have this ability.

I'm not misquoting you at all, I'm just disagreeing with you. I'm saying that evolution has everything to do with the conscience. It has everything to do with how we act as a people, to decide what is right and what is wrong. What we call "right" is simply what's best for the species, and what we call "wrong" is what is bad for the species. It hasn't "evolved", correct, but we have evolved and we decide what is right and what is wrong - not God. Humans aren't the only ones with this ability, we're just the only ones with such a complex method of judging what's right and what's wrong. Chimps and countless other animals have their own methods of "punishing" those that do "wrong" ie. something that harms the group.

 

I also like how you put everything into Dawkins...and it's crazy that I believe in Jesus's teachings? How i'm uneducated and because you choose not to believe you are intellectually superior? I should read more....huh. Stupid me.

 

I'm not putting everything into Dawkins, I'm putting everything into science. He happens to be one of many people that understand and teach proper science. I apologize if I've offended you, I never said I'm intellectually superior, I was simply trying to say that you don't seem to understand the complete theory of evolution. You may very well be more educated than me in a wide variety of topics, but your arguments show that you don't know the theory. All I'm saying is that your arguments will make more sense if you properly understand the theory you're debating against. This shouldn't be perceived as an insult, I'm just saying it in the interest of a good discussion.

Edited by beau+++

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Do you think that your wishes and your wants are romantically clouding your judgement that all things perceivable ARE science? Like when I mentioned earlier that people say it's depressing that I don't think there is an afterlife. So because it's depressing , some people won't consider it as a viable option.

 

I don't mean this in the political way, but it sounds like you may be using "truthiness". Where you WANT it to be a romantic answer, yet it's very possible there just isn't one.

 

Although if I could "prove" I loved someone by a certain brain print that showed the right activity in my grey matter and hormones, it would be fascinating. And it would be science. But that doesn't keep me from also seeing the world through the eyes of the romantic illusion that it is. I can still enjoy love songs that talk about being together forever, etc. Just like a movie, I'll buy into it's story during the time it lasts. But that doesn't take away that I still know it's just a piece of celluloid showing some actors.

 

I don't see the world as an illusion. This is it. Right here, right now. That I enjoy the story of my life doesn't take away that I still know it's just a pattern of DNA. The point I'm making is that it has a beauty to it. It does have an aspect of Romanticism. Using just logic and your interlect to investiage our Being is laziness. Logic gives "safe" answers. It's like feeding your Being on a diet of interlectual Big Macs.

 

Just to explain myself a bit more because I do think from your response you are assuming I hold ideas that I don't.

-I have no faith based beliefs. I'm certain science can answer perfectly any question which falls within its' realm.

-I do believe in Romanticism but only to the extent that I myself experence it. With science, I could accept an idea is true by just reading a sciencfic journal. I require I higher level of proof than that.

 

Even if all things perceivable are science, we still have this question. What are we to investigate with this tool. If we can study anything how do we focus the search?

To me the answer is to follow what I find interesting. Strands of DNA don't interest me. The beautiful results of those pattens sometimes do.

Edited by destro

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I don't see the world as an illusion. This is it. Right here, right now. That I enjoy the story of my life doesn't take away that I still know it's just a pattern of DNA. The point I'm making is that it has a beauty to it. It does have an aspect of Romanticism. Using just logic and your interlect to investiage our Being is laziness. Logic gives "safe" answers. It's like feeding your Being on a diet of interlectual Big Macs.

 

Just to explain myself a bit more because I do think from your response you are assuming I hold ideas that I don't.

-I have no faith based beliefs. I'm certain science can answer perfectly any question which falls within its' realm.

-I do believe in Romanticism but only to the extent that I myself experence it. With science, I could accept an idea is true by just reading a sciencfic journal. I require I higher level of proof than that.

 

Even if all things perceivable are science, we still have this question. What are we to investigate with this tool. If we can study anything how do we focus the search?

To me the answer is to follow what I find interesting. Strands of DNA don't interest me. The beautiful results of those pattens sometimes do.

("interlect" = intellect) :lol: Just thought I should point that out.

 

As far as "Using just logic and your interlect to investiage our Being is laziness." is concerned: isn't it lazier to just accept an explanation without any evidence than it is to explore and test the science behind it? Isn't the religious answer the safe answer? I'm not trying to twist your words here, I've just never heard science be described as the easy way out. The scientific method takes far more work and effort and risks than any religious method.

 

Edit: I think I misunderstood you.

Edited by beau+++

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Science is not here to prove the theory behind love? Why not? This is a clear reason why I believe in God. How can you say Love doesn't exist? How can you say faith doesn't exist? Why do you believe that when you die nothing will be there? because you have 100% faith in science. Faith exists for everyone. Once we are reduced to atoms the IDEA of the person is gone.

 

So if we are only our brain functions, that is the illusion. There is no mind, no soul, no moral agent.

 

-How does this explain the human condition?

 

-How does evolution explain individual importance (why i'd risk my existence running into a burning house to save another)?

 

but what Science cannot prove, science cannot answer at all.......Love, Justice, Consciences must not exist then.

 

I enjoyed reading your post. I find most "faith" people just mindlessly parrot the bible. I don't believe in any god or gods, but I've now got a much clearer understanding of where you guys are comming from.

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I enjoyed reading your post. I find most "faith" people just mindlessly parrot the bible. I don't believe in any god or gods, but I've now got a much clearer understanding of where you guys are comming from.

 

i suck at quoting the bible....lol. I just have read to much in it to know it's too good to not be true.

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Again, people do not have "faith" in science. Get off your ass and do the work. All your questions were answered, or argued out to truly valid questions hundreds based on reasoned positions of years ago. I hate to poison Shangri-La here, but every time you set a keyframe, then hit RAM preview, then adjust the keyframe some more, you're using the scientific method - is that how you do it or do you simply have faith that the keyframes will work out?

 

Of course there are things we don't know. That's what it's all about - the journey, not the destination.

 

this process you speak of is man made....to make something you follow steps, open a new project, make a new comp, import files and artwork, drag them on the timeline......i just don't see how the scientific method can explain why I have have hopes and dreams....why I expect great things from my kids. This may sound trivial to you....but evolution doesn't explain this. It doesn't. No offense, but you have faith....faith that you know the "truth"....faith that you know there's nothing after you pass.

 

...and if there is no destination the journey is meaningless. That's logical no?

 

In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't. --Blaise Pascal

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In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't. --Blaise Pascal

 

Pascal should stick to mathematics. His "Pascal's Wager" theory on believing in a god has already been beaten up many times over.

 

"I've met a lot of brilliant Christians, but I've never met a stupid atheist" - me :)

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I've met stupid athiest before. (not saying anyone here is stupid)

 

Pascal may not have been right on alot of things....who is? but that is a main point in the Bible...if you want to find God you will....if you don't want to......you won't. (I don't have anything against those who don't, this discussion is fun.....)

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but that is a main point in the Bible...if you want to find God you will....if you don't want to......you won't.

 

As toerag said many pages back in this thread, that is "Conformation bias". It basically means people have the ability to justify anything they want to. Especially vague texts that contradict themselves.

 

That's why horoscopes are so popular. It's also like those psychological tests where they ask the subjects if they agree with a set of statements. Those statements are just generalizations that apply to everyone. Yet the majority of subjects firmly believe they were being uniquely described.

 

So the Bible is no different than any other belief system in the world. All you need is an inclination and you'll find a way to justify it. It's because human's tend to only listen to "evidence" that supports what beliefs they already have. Re-reading this entire thread shows that. Most good points have been ignored.

 

I forgot who said it but it was something like, "It only takes a moment to convince somebody of something, then a lifetime to un-convince them of it".

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Lurker here! Been checking up on this thread as I happen to be a bit of a nut for researching religion and its effects on society and individuals.

 

There are a lot of good videos recently posted here:

 

http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/beyo...les-in-the-dark

 

Most seem to be talking about a lot of what the theists on here say cannot be explained by science.

The brain on Human Happiness, Politics, Morality, Money, Law....

 

Definitely worth a watch.

Edited by brake

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As toerag said many pages back in this thread, that is "Conformation bias". It basically means people have the ability to justify anything they want to. Especially vague texts that contradict themselves.

 

That's why horoscopes are so popular. It's also like those psychological tests where they ask the subjects if they agree with a set of statements. Those statements are just generalizations that apply to everyone. Yet the majority of subjects firmly believe they were being uniquely described.

 

So the Bible is no different than any other belief system in the world. All you need is an inclination and you'll find a way to justify it. It's because human's tend to only listen to "evidence" that supports what beliefs they already have. Re-reading this entire thread shows that. Most good points have been ignored.

 

I forgot who said it but it was something like, "It only takes a moment to convince somebody of something, then a lifetime to un-convince them of it".

 

how is it not the same for someone who doesn't believe.....the "evidence" you describe...although you believe that it answers everything, it doesn't...at least to alot of people....(this is where someone comes in and tells me to stop being lazy and read for myself right? all those who believe just haven't read up on this? )How is that going to change my mind? There is no switch to flick....because there is logic & reasoning....and I don't think 2 atoms bouncing together can produce that.

 

Hypothetical Question.

what if you read the Bible.....just picked it up read it for like an hour or 2. What if what you read made sense....what if it predicted something in your life and it came true...what if you had doubts?

 

would you believe?

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how is it not the same for someone who doesn't believe.....the "evidence" you describe...although you believe that it answers everything, it doesn't...at least to alot of people....(this is where someone comes in and tells me to stop being lazy and read for myself right? all those who believe just haven't read up on this? )How is that going to change my mind? There is no switch to flick....because there is logic & reasoning....and I don't think 2 atoms bouncing together can produce that.

 

Hypothetical Question.

what if you read the Bible.....just picked it up read it for like an hour or 2. What if what you read made sense....what if it predicted something in your life and it came true...what if you had doubts?

 

would you believe?

What if? I've read the Bible, the Qur'an, the Bhagavad gita, the Tao te Ching, probably the bulk of english language materials on Shinto, same for Candomble, and did a term paper on Zoroastrianism. Nietzsche, Plato, Kant, etc.

I'm not really someone who uses what I haven't bothered to do as an excuse.

 

edit: P.S. the idea that my avatar's named for a saint should be a clue.

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Hypothetical Question.

what if you read the Bible.....just picked it up read it for like an hour or 2. What if what you read made sense....what if it predicted something in your life and it came true...what if you had doubts?

 

would you believe?

 

I grew up mostly in private school. I've had the bible read to me every single school day over and over , year after year. I've had to go to chapel daily and say the lords prayer a thousand times. From day one I always saw it as a joke.

 

Every once and a while I pick it up when in a hotel and read thru random bits and the only thing that comes to my mind is how amazingly scattered it is. How it is so clearly written by men who had an objective. I could go on endlessly about my problems with it. But suffice to say, with me, the answer to your hypothetical question is 'no', I would not believe. Just like I never have before.

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Sao i've come to the conclusion that you are just a robot.

 

I grew up mostly in private school. I've had the bible read to me every single school day over and over , year after year. I've had to go to chapel daily and say the lords prayer a thousand times. From day one I always saw it as a joke.

 

Every once and a while I pick it up when in a hotel and read thru random bits and the only thing that comes to my mind is how amazingly scattered it is. How it is so clearly written by men who had an objective. I could go on endlessly about my problems with it. But suffice to say, with me, the answer to your hypothetical question is 'no', I would not believe. Just like I never have before.

 

you misread my question. it wasn't have you ever read the bible and what do you think...

 

the question is what if it made sense to you, what if you received answers and the actual message helped you....what if it predicted something in your life that came true. Then would you believe?

 

btw, everything has an objective....science has an objective, I have an objective....everything has an objective. That is no flaw. You just choose to believe that objective is negative? I don't see the Bibles core message as negative.

 

The bible was also written over a 1600 year span by 40 or more people...it's not like they all got together and plotted some fantastic scheme.

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