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jazman

Joe The Plumber?

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I can't believe I'm back to this thread...but I am.

 

Anthony, the whole "what if..." thing doesn't hold much water...that's like saying, "what if my aunt had balls? She'd be my uncle."

 

what if people who believe in god understood why other people don't? and what if they also understood why we don't want religion dictating our political systems.

 

Either you don't get it, or you don't care. Ultimately, the burden of proof is on YOU...not us. If you believe God exists, that doesn't necessarily make it so. Millions of children all over the world believe that Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny exist...they don't. They are a lie created by adults to manipulate children into behaving so they can be rewarded by a fictitious being on a special day. (Sound familiar?)

 

ok, I'm going back to work now.

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You gotta admit on reading your question again, it sounds like you are asking us to read the bible for at least two hours as if we've never done that before.

 

But understanding your question now as IF I happened to have linked writings in the bible to my own life and it helped me then great. Hell I've read Tony Robbins books that have helped me and that's one goofy mofo.

 

Would I believe in the big questions it poses? No, not at all. It's more probable that being silly humans with easily tricked brains that I just would have just tied coincidences to it like people do with horoscopes and "psychic" palm readers.

 

If YOU believe it helped you then , hey, be my guest. But I have an equal probability of believing in the bible as I do in puff the magic dragon. They both have the same amount of evidence and probability as being true.

 

And please don't start up with needing faith again in science. If you are typing on a laptop that uses electricity then you can clearly see that science does not use faith. It is a method of unlocking answers, not THE actual answer. Actually the scientific method is the OPPOSITE of faith. Science uses deduction and reason to come to reasonable conclusions based on evidence. Faith is just hoping that what you want to be true IS true.

 

It is an impossibility for me to believe in hocus pocus without one shred of evidence. If there is a god then that god made me to be skeptical at it's lack of physical proof. And I shall honor that.

 

Do you think that the entire scientific community is all one giant conspiratorial lie? That even through this lie, it has managed to create medicines, discover dinosaurs, make computers, send machines into space with near perfect accuracy? And I'm supposed to doubt these people because one of many, many cultures wrote an old book that was for ancient peoples to read and guess what the stars in the sky are and what this crazy life is about?

 

If science required faith we would all be sitting naked in caves right now. No arrows, no tools, no nothing. The minute a person sees what is before them and does critical tests is when science exists.

 

If YOU feel good jumping on one of the old bandwagons which tries to explain the meaning of everything, then please do. I certainly won't condemn anyone who does. To me it's like having your kids believe in Santa, Easter Bunny, and the tooth fairy. If they believe in it, and it makes them happy then let them do it. It's kind of cute to watch anyways. But the second that belief gets in the way of man's progress (science and technology), then things go wrong.

 

Like that bumper sticker says, "There was a time when religion ruled the world. It was called the dark ages".

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What If's are what make us unique....we're born w/ "what if's".....you probably say "what if" 10 times a day. I don't really care why YOU don't believe in God, I have an idea why..but I do not care.......the whole reason why I joined in this discussion was because "faith" and "religion" were being thrown around unfairly. The impression that most of you gave off was why I responded.

 

you think you know, that YOUR truth is the ONLY truth. that those who believe are naive and uneducated....so you respond with God is like the Easter Bunny....really? really? I've never heard of anyone dying for Santa or the Easter Bunny...I've never heard of anyone changing their lives for Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

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What If's are what make us unique....we're born w/ "what if's".....you probably say "what if" 10 times a day. I don't really care why YOU don't believe in God, I have an idea why..but I do not care.......the whole reason why I joined in this discussion was because "faith" and "religion" were being thrown around unfairly. The impression that most of you gave off was why I responded.

 

you think you know, that YOUR truth is the ONLY truth. that those who believe are naive and uneducated....so you respond with God is like the Easter Bunny....really? really? I've never heard of anyone dying for Santa or the Easter Bunny...I've never heard of anyone changing their lives for Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

 

And you think YOUR "truth" is the only truth! You can be the most educated person in the world, but to believe in God is your "belief" it does NOT make it true. Regardless of faith. The Santa/Easter Bunny analogies are just an example of that. Religion can do great things for people, it can inspire people to be better and do good things for others, but ultimately, religion can do things like make people fly planes into buildings and start holy wars too. I reject those ideas - good and bad.

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I've never heard of anyone dying for Santa or the Easter Bunny...I've never heard of anyone changing their lives for Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

 

Thankfully children are pulled out of those myths early on. If not, I feel confident adults would die for Santa and Easter Bunny. People do some really stupid shit for some really crazy religions. Don't think for a second Jesus has any special gift that makes people give their life for him. People of all cultures and faiths die for their local myth system as well, no matter how crazy it may seem to another culture.

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Anthony I don't think you get the point of this massive thread.

 

How can you say "YOUR truth"? When in fact thousands of scientists work everyday to debunk myths found on earth. If we all let religion rule us like it did for thousands of years, we wouldn't be so advanced as we are now. The human condition has not changed much, but don't linger that with faith. The scientists you're talking about have made your life better. They have lengthened life as we know it. Did you know that the average age of living in the American Renaissance era was about 50? Look at it now. This is for ALL of us.

 

Remember that religion IS a faith based system. Mass religion is what I call it.

 

I want to create a new religion, can you join it? Of course you won't. It will be called a sect.

 

Remember that Christianity used to be a small sect prior to being released to the public by Constantine in the Roman Empire. Then people were massively killed if they did not join this new sect. Christianity is a poor peoples religion.

 

I don't know how a logical person can believe in the bible stories. Or even Judaism. Any religion. It is OBVIOUS that the stories are fake.

 

Jesus turned water into wine? Suuuuuuuuuuuure he did.

Moses split the red sea? Suuuuuuuuuuuuure he did.

 

 

/Sarcasm off

 

These are just metaphors that some people actually take seriously.

 

I think the bible/koran/torah were largely misinterpreted by people. Look at the impact of it.

Edited by Havok.Dzn

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What If's are what make us unique....we're born w/ "what if's".....you probably say "what if" 10 times a day. I don't really care why YOU don't believe in God, I have an idea why..but I do not care.......the whole reason why I joined in this discussion was because "faith" and "religion" were being thrown around unfairly. The impression that most of you gave off was why I responded.

 

you think you know, that YOUR truth is the ONLY truth. that those who believe are naive and uneducated....so you respond with God is like the Easter Bunny....really? really? I've never heard of anyone dying for Santa or the Easter Bunny...I've never heard of anyone changing their lives for Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

 

The only things that make 'us' unique are our DNA and our life experiences. Like Basilisk touched on with 'The Selfish Gene', you are not a discreet unit. You are a massive conglomeration of cells being built and controlled by the selfish competition of the genes making up your DNA. But, understanding that would require some basic scientific knowledge and a desire to find a more correct answer.

 

This thread is like when the worst student in class is arguing with the teacher. Any of us on the science side could play devil's advocate and come with these canned responses and narrow viewpoints.

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The only things that make 'us' unique are our DNA and our life experiences. Like Basilisk touched on with 'The Selfish Gene', you are not a discreet unit. You are a massive conglomeration of cells being built and controlled by the selfish competition of the genes making up your DNA. But, understanding that would require some basic scientific knowledge and a desire to find a more correct answer.

 

This thread is like when the worst student in class is arguing with the teacher. Any of us on the science side could play devil's advocate and come with these canned responses and narrow viewpoints.

 

You are both as bad as each other.

You seem to be saying Science is right and if he just studied it he would see that.

He's saying the Bible is right and if you just studied it you would see that.

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You are both as bad as each other.

You seem to be saying Science is right and if he just studied it he would see that.

He's saying the Bible is right and if you just studied it you would see that.

 

No, not quite. One side is arguing to learn more and to seek more understanding. The other side is arguing to take it all on faith. I don't think those are comparable paradigms. The same issue has already been discussed at length in this thread. I have studied religions(ie. not just the one my parents gave me). I have studied the Bible in many different versions. Has anyone on the other side read any Darwin, Dawkins, Harris, Kurzweil, Pinker, Hitchens, Hofstadter, anything?

Edited by Albert Omoss

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And one of them is right. Just because there are two sides doesn't mean they both have equal weight. One is marked by reason and careful thought. The other blind faith and willful ignorance. One side is claiming to have all the answers. The other makes no such pretense.

 

The answer may well be somewhere in between the two points, but only one of the two philosophies articulated could possibly reconcile such a realization. We are spiritual creatures. But organized religion doesn't know jack shit. And the answers are probably too "gray area" and cognitive dissonance-inducing for a follower of blind faith. And science doesn't have to be in opposition to religion. It's the dogmatic literalists like the Fundamentalist Christians and Fundamentalist Muslims who are too narrow-minded to see that believing in things like evolution, the big bang, and dinosaurs (for fuck's sake) and believing in a higher power are not mutually exclusive.

 

Psychobabble is ok if you're talking about psychos. Go see Religulous.

 

You are both as bad as each other.

You seem to be saying Science is right and if he just studied it he would see that.

He's saying the Bible is right and if you just studied it you would see that.

Edited by pixelthief

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even without debating the premise that there is a christian god, the whole Jesus incident of feeding the multitudes from a small amount of shared fish and bread seems like redistributing the wealth and experimentation with socialism

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:lol: :lol:

 

even without debating the premise that there is a christian god, the whole Jesus incident of feeding the multitudes from a small amount of shared fish and bread seems like redistributing the wealth and experimentation with socialism

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i think you are a little biased....not to say I wasn't in my view, but honestly I was expecting the christian lecture to get ripped to shreads......i didn't see that.....infact he pretty much answered what I needed to know......everything I've seen, read, and argued about has not only strengthened my belief in God, but it has made me want to search out more and read more. So Atheist are good for something.

 

please Rebel on, and I will Believe on.

 

Peace!

Edited by anthonyc

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So Atheist are good for something.

 

please Rebel on, and I will Believe on.

 

Peace!

 

Hmm you just put yourself on a pedestal.

 

Being an Atheist = rebellion? Against what? A man made religion that's FACTUALLY only about 2,000 years old?

 

You're a funny dude, Anthony.

 

Just keep on believing in Santa.....maybe one day he will ACTUALLY fit his fat ass through the chimney and bring you presents....wait, what if you live in an apartment and DON'T have a chimney? What if he breaks my window and enters through it? Isn't that technically breaking and entering? Oh here I go again rebelling....sorry about that.

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