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jazman

Joe The Plumber?

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It's not your faith that makes me dismiss you, it's your demonstrated inability to get the point. There is a whole big world of ideas out there - you should check it out sometime.

 

 

I do everyday. I suggest the same for you. As I said before YOU hijacked my thread, you can't put people in a box. The only reason that I mentioned that I believed in Creation is because I wanted to show you that in your small thinking, you were trying to categorize people to justify your understanding. There are Christians who believe very different things about politics and Evolution vs Creation and other points but that's okay because most can agree to disagree.

 

You tried to do the same once before when I said I knew professionals who used Aperture. If things don't fit into your narrow understanding of the world then it seems you easily dismiss it. Your a hypocrite.

 

Albert, is it a fact that we evolved from apes? What's your proof? You obviously haven't seen this happen. You learned something in school and it makes sense to you so you believe it. Yes there are things that man tells us they believe is proof but there is no missing link. No Geico caveman walking around. Sorry dude, that's a leap to me, but if that's what you believe then party-on.

 

Chris, you have a very different concept of faith than what is taught in the Bible. It's NEVER based on feeling. The bible teaches that if you think you have all the answers, then you don't know anything. And in that gunman scenario, that wouldn't be faith, that would be foolishness. If they said don't step outside then you don't step outside! Faith is knowing that one day you will die and be with God.

 

I think most folk have an expectation of coming home safe. We take that and other things for granted. Then at the end of the day, you watch the news and count your blessings because many didn't get home safe.

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Let me preface this response that it IS pointless to have this thread. AND that no matter what views I have, I thoroughly support everyone having their views no matter how different than mine. I don't care to convince nor do I expect to. I mostly answer these because it pains me to see misinformation about something I'm interested about. If everyone arguing the points understood it correctly and still didn't buy into it, so be it. But it's just a pet peeve that the same incorrect things have been being repeated for decades despite new discoveries, new methods, etc. Points against evolution have been the same ones since Darwin's time. Darwin had many holes in his theory. Some have been unanswered, some have had new discoveries.

 

Albert, is it a fact that we evolved from apes? What's your proof? You obviously haven't seen this happen. You learned something in school and it makes sense to you so you believe it. Yes there are things that man tells us they believe is proof but there is no missing link. No Geico caveman walking around. Sorry dude, that's a leap to me, but if that's what you believe then party-on.

 

Well, we all know that there is a threshold to what one considers a fact. Since there isn't such thing as a 100% fact. But using the gravity example, the evidence that I feel and see that my feet stick to the ground is enough of a threshold of evidence that by my own standards , I will call gravity a fact.

 

So Man from Apes. Zoologically we should be categorized based on DNA structure, features, and fossil record as a branch from the Chimpanzee branch from the Ape branch. For example, Chimps have more in common with a human than any other ape (gorillas, orangs, gibbons, etc). What's interesting is that two different branches of science corroborate with each other on this tree. There is the branch of science that deals with fossils and features that made a tree reflecting their observations. Then there is the much newer biological science that analyzes DNA and creates a tree based on results. The two branching structures line up to show that Apes and Monkeys split off from an ancestor long ago. Whithin the ape class there is the branch that gives us chimps. Whithin that branch alone we have Chimps, bonobos, Homo Erectus, Home Neanderthalis, and a couple other *species* of human like animals that didn't survive.

 

But there ARE many, many bones of Neanderthals. They did exist and their bone structure was certainly not like ours. The debate going today is why did they die out? One theory is that they were close enough to Home Erectus that they could cross breed and they fuzed. Another is that Homo Erectus dominated the area's resources and possibly dominated Neanderthals themselves. BUT if you were to point to a Geico guy, it would be Neanderthals. Large brows, etc. These DID exist and there are many skulls to show it.

 

Also there were the Australopithecus. They were about as transitional as it gets. But let's not talk humans. There are fossil links for thousands of species showing to mutate over time. Like whales which were actually land mammals at one time till they evolved for suitability to the water (again).

 

So unless someone is suggesting that all the information I read in science books and papers is alledging that all these people are simply lying as a whole, then we have this evidence before us. Considering this is the same body of people (scientists who use the scientific method) that creates the medicines that cure us, send us to the moon, and make the laptop I'm typing on, I tend to give them credibility points.

 

If someone wants to call reading about evidence and agreeing with other postulates that I agree with is having faith, then I can't change that. But it's what makes sense to me.

 

But I certainly wouldn't ever put scientific method and believing in one of thousands of myths created through the ages as on equal balance of a leap of faith. Not by a long shot.

 

-my useless thoughts.

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Almost all modern medical practice is based on Evolutionary Biology. I suggest that the next time you get sick, boycott these faithless heathens and go straight to church. There, you can pray for God's healing power, which you have faith in.

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I love election season, when every thread morphs into something else. So okay, into the breach!

 

Raven's dead right. Jazzman, if you really think you can't observe evolution, then by all means, go off all drugs at once. Forget functioning antibiotics. Go back to simple penicillin. We need next-generation antibiotics because bacteria populations evolve, and we can see this evolution within just a few years. We have to change the drugs or else they simply won't work. In other words, luckily for you, the people in charge of saving your life don't think like you.

 

Here's one of the definitive pieces on that whole 'no evidence for evolution' canard. Evolution in action? Here's an example of that.

 

The thing that gets me whenever this comes up is how the creationists invariably accuse scientists of being closed-minded. Well, yes they are, in one respect. Creationism is an idea that was discarded over 100 years ago, along with thousands of other theories that didn't fit the data. It's not open-minded to choose the result that gave you 1+1=32. It's just the wrong answer. It gets set aside for answers that do work. In the larger sense, the most important sense, researchers are massively open-minded, because they're looking for new ideas at every stage. Being closed-minded to new ideas is anathema. Being closed-minded to old ideas that didn't work, that's called filtering out the noise.

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Almost all modern medical practice is based on Evolutionary Biology. I suggest that the next time you get sick, boycott these faithless heathens and go straight to church. There, you can pray for God's healing power, which you have faith in.

 

Faithless heathens? That's really stupid. You have no idea what Christianity is about yet you assume you know like Bento. My doctor is a Christian. You don't agree with me? Fine, but don't throw out that kind of stuff as if that's what people of faith believe.

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what I don't quite get is why evolution vs creation is the focus of all the attention.

Let's look at Genesis. God creates the plants. Then he creates the lights in the firmament above the earth.

Clearly the person writing this (who can write no wrong obviously) thinks that the plants can grow before there is any daylight for photosynthesis. He also thinks the moon and the sun are lights (stars?) not that the moon is just a reflective lump of rock. He implies (and almost certainly believed) that the moon, sun and stars move around the earth.

 

And that is just the first couple of paragraphs. Anyone accepting literal biblical truth of the Old Testament must logically pretty much believe that all of modern science is a lie/conspiracy theory to discredit religious people, or the workings of some sort of evil magic. The Amish are at least consistent.

 

And before you assume other people know nothing of religion, I actually spent some of my university degree studying theology. I reached the view that the Bible (New and Old) is a radically inconsistent and irreconcilable collection of disparate texts reflecting the views and prejudices of the people who wrote it, and that if an all knowing God had wanted to provide a holy book for us all to live our lives by, he could not have produced a more incoherent mess than that which we now have (it took the early Christians nearly 300 years to even decide which books to include)

 

Go to church and you will not be faced with these problems and inconsistancies; fundamentalist preachers ignore them, or deny they exist, but they make the very idea that the bible is "literal truth" or "divinely inspire" frankly laughable.

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I always have said that if instruction manuals were written like the bible, we'd never figure out how to even start the software.

 

Also, the whole notion of mutual exclusivity. Even if you punched a few holes in a leading theory doesn't mean you throw the whole thing out and start believing in ancient stories.

 

We only have one decent theory on how gravity works. Einstein's relativity which postulates it's from the distortion of space-time from mass. But even if somebody finds a hole in that, it doesn't mean we're gonna fly off the Earth into space. Nor should we go searching the thousands of creation myths to find which one their peoples think is inerrant and see if one of their gods had anything to do why we suck to the surface as the answer.

 

The first few pages alone of Genesis has so many logical holes in it, you could write 10 books on that alone. But that's like a boxer beating up a baby. Genesis is a mutation of stories from pagan myths before it that were poly deist. They borrowed the flood, tree of knowledge, etc. But actually left out a lot of the stories that made it cooler.

 

But it's completely pointless to go picking on ancient stories from sheep herders that thought the earth was flat, snakes talked to people, the water was displaced in seas by magic, etc. They were just the movies of that day and age. And no doubt before the printing press, as the stories were passed down everyone had their own take on it.

 

If anything Genesis makes their god look like a complete asshole. If I had a innocent child who didn't know right from wrong, put him in a room with a plate of cookies and told him not to eat it. Then after someone else come in and tell him to eat it anyways and he does. You can't blame him. He doesn't know the difference from right and wrong. But it goes further. You could use that as a lesson to help him learn right from wrong OR you can be a complete prick and not only punish him, but all of his offspring FOREVER. Even though you are omnipotent and knew all this was going to happen from the beginning of time.

 

If I create something and it doesn't work the way I want. To me it's creator error. I don't get pissed at the creation and punish it forever. I fix it. Also I wouldn't be pissed at it because if I was Omnipotent I would know the results infinitely back in time. And emotions are defined by the reaction to new information.

 

But really , breaking up the first 3 pages of the bible could seriously go on endlessly.

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I'm just saying that it's an incredible coincidence that you use the exact same lines of attack parroted by every limbaugh, hannity, etc. That's the part that bothers me - it doesn't sound like it's your own opinion.

 

Just because I have the same ideological differences with him as those folks doesn't make me a parrot. I don't agree with everything that the right-wing commentators say, either. I don't watch FOX News (or much television, period) but the few times I've seen it on, they don't sound much different from anybody else - except occasionally they ask Democrats questions that they don't want to answer. The opinion shows are another matter, of course...but I don't watch those.

 

In any event, if there is all this bad stuff and American doesn't want Obama's policies, etc. Why is he so far ahead in the polls? (even Fox News polls). How do you explain all that?

The polls show the "lead" within the margin of error. Then you read deeper: AP/Yahoo sampled 373 Democrats, 252 Republicans and 214 independents. They oversample Democrats by 48%, claim he's got the "victory" by the margin of error, and he's supposedly far ahead?

 

With all the magazine covers, media and celebrity support, and a media that seems invested in his victory in this election, the guy ought to be up by thirty points. He can't make it more than two, because he couldn't even handle a single question from a plumber. Yeah, that's right - a guy who WANTS to work his way to having his own license and buying the company he works for, who aspires to make over $250,000. A guy who's not afraid to use his middle name, unlike the Obamessiah. The fact of the matter is, despite the fact that the Obama "truth squads" are picking the guy apart, that one simple ordinary American was able to expose the fact that Obama is a socialist, plain and simple.

 

Redistribution of wealth? Who really wants to vote for that? I DARE the Obamessiah to put that in his platform, if it's such a lofty ideal. While we're at it, why doesn't he run on how he REALLY feels about gun ownership, abortion, education...once again, I maintain that a campaign running on those ideals wouldn't survive long in the general election. That's why the Chosen One is out there talking about tax cuts. Wait, I thought higher taxes were about "fairness" a few months ago? Oh, but that's before the great triangulation began.

 

If I understand what you're saying - you're saying that there is all this bad stuff, but the media won't cover it. Does that mean that you feel there's a media conspiracy to install a president against the will of the country?

 

I don't think there's some pinko Karl Rove out there pulling all the strings; however, it's pretty obvious that the mainstream media is invested in Democrat candidates, and there is no use in trying to hide it. Just look at how they ganged up on this guy who simply answered the door when the Obamessiah knocked on it, and ended up exposing him as the antithesis to the American way of life. Maybe they'll all get red arm bands once Obama gets elected, so they can officially start policing thought!

 

This kind of behavior is what the Democrats have always scared you people into thinking the Republicans are doing. All I see is Democrats trying to shut up the opposition. It used to be the Limbaughs, etc. of the world that they wanted to legislate out of existence; now it's common, everyday people thinking in opposition to the liberal mindset. Scary stuff.

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(it took the early Christians nearly 300 years to even decide which books to include

 

Oh there you go, getting me all hot and bothered, bringing up Athanasius. :D If I could change careers again, I'd chance it with Biblical or Late Classical studies.

 

Lectures by Barton Ehrman, one of the better religion study scholars working today, absolutely slew me. Listening to it while pushing polygons is so fascinating it shouldn't be legal:

Barton Ehrman,
<----Best of all, sweet
pr0n!

Barton Ehrman,

Barton Ehrman,

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Very obsolete and ridiculous debate. Faith in religion does not equal faith in science. Period. End. Science is not something you have faith in. It is backed by experimentations, REAL facts, evidence, hypothesis, intelligence and criticism.

Usually to avoid wasting my time i ask religious people where are the dinos in the bible, because i missed that chapter.

For more information please refer to Richard Dawkins on youtube thank you.

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Albert jazman, is it a fact that we evolved from apes were created by a God? What's your proof? You obviously haven't seen this happen. You learned something in school church and it makes sense to you so you believe it. Yes there are things that man tells us they believe is proof but there is no missing link. No Geico caveman walking around God showing his face, or dinosaur fossils with saddles intact. Sorry dude, that's a leap to me, but if that's what you believe then party-on.
Edited by beau+++

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It's really a pointless argument. It's quite easy to find very detailed, reasoned arguments on intelligent design vs. science, so why cover old ground again? People with the kind of viewpoint jazman has expressed are incapable of seeing any other point of view on this subject. Their entire stance is based upon their belief in their own point of view, so the act of even considering alternates would be an admission of failure for them, which is why I kept my response short. It's a waste of time. There is nothing you can say to prove him wrong or change his mind.

 

Sao, it may be quite easy to "find very detailed, reasoned arguments on intelligent design vs. science" if you go looking for them, but obviously people like jazman never bother looking. In that sense it's not "old ground" at all, it's strange wonderful new ground that most religious people are never exposed to. He's never going to look for this information, so by putting this information in front of him and other people like him, we at least give them a shot at enlightenment.

 

Debating with people like this may very well be a waste of my time in the end, but NOT debating with people like this is simply a waste of your knowledge. Ideas like theirs spread like wildfire through the generations because people like you give up and don't put the tried and true arguments in front of them (I'm not trying to be confrontational here by saying "people like you", I just mean people that don't feel the need to debate and point out flaws in their arguments).

 

We can all be sarcastic and rude to these people (I'm not totally innocent here), but all that does is make them feel attacked and they immediately stop listening. I'm hoping the reason jazman never responded to any of my posts is because something hit home with him. It probably didn't, but at least I'm doing my part.

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Redistribution of wealth? Who really wants to vote for that? I DARE the Obamessiah to put that in his platform, if it's such a lofty ideal. While we're at it, why doesn't he run on how he REALLY feels about gun ownership, abortion, education...once again, I maintain that a campaign running on those ideals wouldn't survive long in the general election. That's why the Chosen One is out there talking about tax cuts. Wait, I thought higher taxes were about "fairness" a few months ago? Oh, but that's before the great triangulation began.

I don't think there's some pinko Karl Rove out there pulling all the strings; however, it's pretty obvious that the mainstream media is invested in Democrat candidates, and there is no use in trying to hide it. Just look at how they ganged up on this guy who simply answered the door when the Obamessiah knocked on it, and ended up exposing him as the antithesis to the American way of life. Maybe they'll all get red arm bands once Obama gets elected, so they can officially start policing thought!

 

This kind of behavior is what the Democrats have always scared you people into thinking the Republicans are doing. All I see is Democrats trying to shut up the opposition. It used to be the Limbaughs, etc. of the world that they wanted to legislate out of existence; now it's common, everyday people thinking in opposition to the liberal mindset. Scary stuff.

 

Can someone explain how Obama's tax proposal is socialism? I mean, any more socialist than handing out 600 or 1200 dollar checks to the middle and working class? As I understand it, McCain's tax proposal differs most in that it seeks to make the bush tax cuts permanent. And isn't calling Obama a socialist just throwback fear mongering, just like insinuating he's a terrorist? It's stuff like this that is driving people in droves away from the republican party.

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Sao, it may be quite easy to "find very detailed, reasoned arguments on intelligent design vs. science" if you go looking for them, but obviously people like jazman never bother looking. In that sense it's not "old ground" at all, it's strange wonderful new ground that most religious people are never exposed to. He's never going to look for this information, so by putting this information in front of him and other people like him, we at least give them a shot at enlightenment.

 

Debating with people like this may very well be a waste of my time in the end, but NOT debating with people like this is simply a waste of your knowledge. Ideas like theirs spread like wildfire through the generations because people like you give up and don't put the tried and true arguments in front of them (I'm not trying to be confrontational here by saying "people like you", I just mean people that don't feel the need to debate and point out flaws in their arguments).

 

We can all be sarcastic and rude to these people (I'm not totally innocent here), but all that does is make them feel attacked and they immediately stop listening. I'm hoping the reason jazman never responded to any of my posts is because something hit home with him. It probably didn't, but at least I'm doing my part.

 

No. On the contrary, the reason that I stop posting is because like you and others who have posted, I feel like it won't get through. So it's a waste of time. Though I do appreciate you trying to enlighten ignorant people like me who believe in God. What was I thinking? Seriously though, it got a little disturbing for me. I don't mind a healthy debate or even a healthy piling on (if there is such a thing), but when you read some of the things that have been said... Like for someone to refer to God as an a**hole when they may have been that close to losing their life a week ago. Wow! So I think this is pretty much the end of this conversation. I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me. Yet somehow that makes you a lot smarter than me. Fine. Like you said, you did your part. You should treat yourself. I'm sure you will have you pick of karma for taking on such a project.

Edited by jazman

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We can all be sarcastic and rude to these people (I'm not totally innocent here), but all that does is make them feel attacked and they immediately stop listening.

 

 

Seriously though, it got a little disturbing for me. I don't mind a health debate or even a health piling on (if there is such a thing), but when you read some of the things that have been said... Like for someone to refer to God as an a**hole when they may have been that close to losing their life a week ago. Wow! So I think this is pretty much the end of this conversation.

 

Case in point. You've stopped the conversation (and left your mind closed to the idea of the non-existence of God) because someone got sarcastic with you, but you have yet to actually address any of the issues I've put forward to you. Blissful ignorance folks, this is what happens when you put emotional responses before rational ones.

 

(By the way, I should point out that I DID go to church today to check it out for the first time in years. A closed mind on either side of the fence is ignorance, but I'm still waiting for some evidence. With science we judge all theories based on proof and evidence. With religion the jury is out before listening to a single shred of evidence.)

Edited by beau+++

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Like for someone to refer to God as an a**hole when they may have been that close to losing their life a week ago. Wow! So I think this is pretty much the end of this conversation.

 

Just to be clear. I wasn't saying, "Hey Jazman your god is an asshole". My point was that I find it odd that people push Genesis so much when I think they would not want to draw attention to it because it makes the god character look imbalanced and cruel. Like he needs to be on SSRIs or something. It's like the elephant in the room that people just don't mention.

 

I apologize that my language is course. I'm from Texas, our lexicon is not overly refined ;)

 

As far as questioning why I would talk about bible stories a week after my break-in, I don't understand what one has to do with the other. It's like saying, "Wow, you've got a lot of nerve eating a bowl of cereal only one week after your incident". I was noticeably shaken Monday and some of Tuesday, but I'm not going to let that experience steal my character or opinions. Like the old 9/11 mantra "If you change your life then the terrorists have won".

 

I am extremely appreciative of all the kind words said on that thread and I'm humbly overwhelmed at the amount of them. Including a comment from you which I sincerely appreciated. I'm not attacking YOU. But If anything the experience has raised my aggression level this week. And one of the things I find adverse to civilization's progress are religious issues. I'm just sensitive to the fact that brilliant men throughout history have dared to stand up to religious beliefs and made crazy claims like, "The Earth is NOT the center of the universe". Then been punished and ridiculed for it. I feel for the guy who trades in a normal life to sit in a pit in the desert painstakingly removing dust from a fossil with a small paintbrush so he can add just one more bit of evidence to our library of knowledge. All to have a massive body of people find ways to ridicule this evidence because it doesn't fit into their story.

 

 

Once again, sorry I used the A-word, but I thought we were having a healthy debate (although arguably pointless and certainly not covering any new ground. Just typing to hear our own keyboards click). But I would hate to think the one word would make you leave a perfectly fine debate especially since you said you aren't one to back away from a fight.

 

Like Govinda said, you gotta love political season where all the feathers get ruffled :)

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No. On the contrary, the reason that I stop posting is because like you and others who have posted, I feel like it won't get through. So it's a waste of time. Though I do appreciate you trying to enlighten ignorant people like me who believe in God. What was I thinking? Seriously though, it got a little disturbing for me. I don't mind a healthy debate or even a healthy piling on (if there is such a thing), but when you read some of the things that have been said... Like for someone to refer to God as an a**hole when they may have been that close to losing their life a week ago. Wow! So I think this is pretty much the end of this conversation. I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me. Yet somehow that makes you a lot smarter than me. Fine. Like you said, you did your part. You should treat yourself. I'm sure you will have you pick of karma for taking on such a project.

 

I would like to be the one that says thanks for standing up for God and what you believe in. Only a select few on this board really care enough about God to really post anything about religion. All the rest on this board will just beat you down for your faith and not proof based beliefs, so don't let it get to you.

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Ask yourself this: I you were born in the Bolivian jungle, would you believe in a Christian God? And if you wouldn't, would that make you a heathen.

 

Hint: the only possible anwser is 'no' on the 1st part, and 'yes' on the 2nd.

 

Oranised religion, it's the bane of every thinking man's existence.

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Let me add to that: Discarding science as easily as religious fanatics do, is a fucking disgrace. In terms of the 'who has been right so far-game' the score is currently 100-nil.

 

Burden of proof, go get some. Scripture will not do.

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Chizmniz, Jazman, I am not going to argue science, as that can rapidly get technical.

I am very happy to keep it on your home ground.

 

Which of the following statements do you have a problem with

 

1. The Bible is the literal word of God, and therefore infallible

2. The Gospels were written by early followers of Jesus who would have known all about him (and were inspired by God and were therefore infallible)

3. Matthew and Luke both give a genealogy of Jesus. They both agree that he is from the line of kings of Israel descended from David.

4. Matthew thinks that the line descends via David's son Solomon and takes 27 generation, stating that Joseph's father is Jacob

5. Luke thinks that the line descends via David's son Nathan and takes 42 generations, stating that Joseph's father is Heli

6. Matthew and Luke, having gone to great length to show that Jesus is directly descended from King David, also state that Jesus was born of a virgin, and is therefore not related to Joseph or King David at all.

 

(if you need more detail and references they are available here)

 

How is it possible that an infallible text can contain such contradictory information?

I would be fascinated to hear your explanations. As much detail as you like, I would be happy to take the time to read it.

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one, question, WTF happened to sam the plumber? I say we agree to disagree, and continue the McCain bashing! It is much more fun.

 

I will say this, true faith comes from challenges that put your faith to the test, find the answers for yourself and you will intern find faith. I think, I maybe misquoting someone but it makes scents to me. If you are complacent enough to simply believe without question, that is not faith, but laziness and simply allows you to be another member of the prosperity gospel.

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