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jazman

Joe The Plumber?

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i overheard someone talking yesterday, and he made some interesting points. he talked about countries that have as part of their cultural identity, an evolving, changing nature. finding new ways to improve, engaging in the scientific method about what has previously worked best in other countries, say in times of economic meltdown or best practices of education, and they implement those ideas until new data comes in, and they course correct again. the idea being that they almost expect change to stay who they are.

 

he mentioned that there are other societies, like ours, founded on monolithic ideas. now you might say that if we actually followed the monolithic ideas things would be great, as our charter documents in the U.S. are the awesome-ist. But i think the key is that by even thinking that one is sitting on the ultimate knowledge is dangerous. the fact is, the government is not as "by the people" as it should be, but we have a societal identity that tells us we don't need to change.

 

thats why joe the plumber is ruining america, just kidding. but seriously, thats why we need to be careful that the U.S. isnt a giant has-been because of self-righteous ways of looking at ourselves. the talk of "america is the greatest nation on the earth" is tired. if true, great, but proclaiming it to be as true as apple pie, is the beginning of the end. not according to me, but according to some guy i over heard.

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jeez, how did I miss this brawl?

 

my .02 cents:

 

Joe the plumber asked a simple question about Obama's tax policy. Obama told the truth....and to cover for a "spread the wealth" answer, many people in the media and some of you on these boards are skewering Joe and praising Obama. No big deal. Politics as usual. Elevate your candidate while discrediting your opponent. Whatever.

 

Creation vs. Evolution.

 

I believe in the principles of the Bible. John 3:16, Love your neighbor as yourself, Feed the poor, Help the needy. Ask "What would Jesus do?", Trust in a benevolent God so you don't freak out when things get bad. Understand that sometimes life sucks, but when you have a community of people with positive attitudes and similar beliefs you can feel secure in knowing that someone will be there to not pass judgement and just love you.

To know that we live in a "fallen" world where we don't come close to "being holy like God is holy". That Jesus' death was a sacrificial act. That he chose to be an atonement for sin...all that kooky religious stuff.

 

I also think that the "creation" account is allegory. I think Moses sat down and decided he would give the Hebrew people a written account of their oral traditions. Just because modern day writers say "the sky wept" you don't think they meant the sky really cried salty tears, do you?

 

Ok, so that cover Genesis. The rest of the Torah is considered historical. The same could be said for the major and minor prophets and the 'new testament' Of course there is always the pesky 'Revelation of John' to deal with.

 

I don't think creation and evolution are mutually exclusive. Whether you are an atheist, a theist or a deist or somewhere in the middle, the only time we will know 'absolute truth' is when we die.

Edited by mamurphy

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jeez, how did I miss this brawl?

 

my .02 cents:

 

Creation vs. Evolution.

 

I believe in the principles of the Bible. John 3:16, Love your neighbor as yourself, Feed the poor, Help the needy. Ask "What would Jesus do?", Trust in a benevolent God so you don't freak out when things get bad. Understand that sometimes life sucks, but when you have a community of people with positive attitudes and similar beliefs you can feel secure in knowing that someone will be there to not pass judgement and just love you.

To know that we live in a "fallen" world where we don't come close to "being holy like God is holy". That Jesus' death was a sacrificial act. That he chose to be an atonement for sin...all that kooky religious stuff.

 

I also think that the "creation" account is allegory. I think Moses sat down and decided he would give the Hebrew people a written account of their oral traditions. Just because modern day writers say "the sky wept" you don't think they meant the sky really cried salty tears, do you?

 

Ok, so that cover Genesis. The rest of the Torah is considered historical. The same could be said for the major and minor prophets and the 'new testament' Of course there is always the pesky 'Revelation of John' to deal with.

 

do you not feel that the doe-eyed certainty of most christians is scarier than shit? thats the issue here - that "joe the plumber is an every man", and we should applaud his stubborn everyman-ness. in this country that everyman-ness involves being deceptive, devoutly partisan, ignorant of horrible murderous american foreign policy, full of cognitive dissonance against changing their holy, god-blessed, god given gas guzzling ways. all that philosophy gleaned from the bible is great, too bad it exists elsewhere in less dogmatic, divisive, unbelievable, historically psychopathic, literally contradicting beliefs. american self-righteousness + american individualism is freaking scary at times. and im sick of the taboo of talking about the contradictions of thesitic religion. in public, at work, its totally un-kool to talk about, even though by nature, christianty as it is today basically believes that non-believers are going to hell, which to me is more offensive than just healthy questioning of a supposedly infallible source.

 

im all for spirituality and living principled lives, but in the internet age, which is wonderful as far as shaking out whats true and what isnt, having our countries direction ran by people who generally agree that a contradictory, impossible, plagiarised, mistranslated, unoriginal, 2000 year old text is the final word of god, which is distinctly different than the 2000 year old book of people we are at war with over oil, maybe its time we took the higher road and showed our principles, and exhibited ourselves as the greatest country on earth, rather than self-righteously talk about it from our trailer parks and housing bubble mcmansions.

 

and i dont care if i offended any christians here. your religion offends me, and your religion has sucked countless useful tens of thousands off the top of my parents income. just realize that there are many people you work with who think you guys are childish dumbasses for believing that shite, but cant say it because it's out of bounds. and i wish it all were true, would make life much easier. its just ridiculous, and i have to say, the childhood friends of mine that stayed christian, are not the leading minds of critical thought - they are generally good kids who want to do right by their parents, one step of which is to take on their religion.

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jablinko, just quit while this thread is behind. any talk of religion on internet forums is an exercise in frustrated masturbation.

 

i'm not afraid of religious folk, they shouldn't be afraid of my atheism. agreeing to disagree is the best policy here. let's focus on the government, an organization we do actually have the capacity to change.

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jablinko,

All I can say is that there are "christians" who have hi-jacked the religion and turned it into and industry, a political tool, a tool of fear and oppression.

 

If you were to wage war against something, what better way than to corrupt it from the inside? I do not see much benevolence and integrity from a lot of the national figureheads. I do see it everyday at food pantries and homeless shelters and cancer wards. All in the name of Jesus.

 

There are extremists in every movement. Using environmentalism as an example, there are plenty of good people planting trees, recycling, spreading the word to reclaim what we have been entrusted with. Then there are nut jobs who live in trees, cry over trees, and burn cars in dealer lots.

 

 

...and I agree with mete_shop....

Edited by mamurphy

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jablinko, just quit while this thread is behind. any talk of religion on internet forums is an exercise in frustrated masturbation.

 

no doubt

 

im just frustrated by entrenchment, which comes from all quarters, but religion often plays a part in it.

 

christians are often really good people, and my folks have patiently let me lay out my issues without disowning me.

 

im frustrated by lost faith in the u.s. gov the last decade, and by lost value of savings in the last month

 

im also frustrated by acolytes to the status quo, which brings us back to joe the plumber

 

so...how about that new GI in R11

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I would like to be the one that says thanks for standing up for God and what you believe in. Only a select few on this board really care enough about God to really post anything about religion. All the rest on this board will just beat you down for your faith and not proof based beliefs, so don't let it get to you.

 

Boy this thread has legs. :) I thought it would die after everybody got their licks in. Thanks chizmniz for saying that. It takes courage to say that on a board like this. I knew that there were other faith people out there but I also know it isn't always easy to stand-up for what you believe in. Some people may think that if they say anything, the "big dogs" will think they are a freak and won't answer their posts. It does make me think about Simon Peter. There was lots of conversation going on about Jesus and so He asked Peter "Who do you say that I AM?" and Peter said "You are the Christ, Son of the living God?" Jesus then told him that it wasn't flesh and blood that revealed that to him but His Father in Heaven. He also referred to Peter as a Rock. Yet it was Peter who after Christ was captured that denied him three times while surrounded by an angry mob.

 

Some have suggested that I have not considered other possibilities. But the real truth is that I have considered many possibilities. When I was about 20 and in college, I went through a period when I questioned everything and I wondered about God. Then for several months I couldn't stop thinking about Him. Everyday for months whenever I had time to myself. Did He exist? Who He was? What does He do? One day after work, I was waiting for a shuttle to the campus when a girl walks up and starts talking to me. She is what some of you would call a nutjob because right out of the blue she starts talking about God and Jesus. Well that was fine on the street but she kept doing it on the shuttle bus. Out loud! Around other people! I could tell she was a bit nervous but she didn't ask me to say the sinner's prayer or anything. I think mainly she just gave me her testimony. I was a little embarrassed but everything she said 'bore witness' with my spirit. In other words, I knew that God sent her to talk to me. By the time the ride was over and we parted ways, I was really impressed with two things: 1. God really loved me enough to send this girl just to talk to me. 2. Man she was bold! She didn't care what the people on the shuttle thought.

 

So I guess the point is that if you seek God, you will find Him. The Bible says that God is the Truth. I really believe that if you honestly seek the truth you will find it. After that encounter I accepted Christ and the Bible started to become clearer to me. Of course I don't have all the answers, but I am always learning. I don't believe we evolved from apes because it is contrary to God's Word. It is interesting though how this has fired some people up. Ask yourself why this made some of you so angry? I wasn't trying to force it on anybody. I was ready to let it die yet I keep getting called a nutjob, nutball or ignorant or some profanity or moron. Kind of like that mob around Peter. Why can't you agree to disagree? In the end I think this may have helped someone, dare I say.. impress them.

 

It's all good.

Edited by jazman

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Jazman . . .I think it fires people up because it is a personal issue. . . .just like abortion, gay marriage, etc. People have strong feelings about these issues and probably bad experiences in debating them previously with others. Everyone should feel good about throwing their opinion/beliefs out there. Comparing and contrasting views different from your own is really the only way to evaluate your own beliefs and affirm them or not. I feel just as strongly that no one should be bashed for their views, as I do that no one should have others views pushed upon them. I personally am Agnositic and used to be UCC Christian. I believe in evolution as a scientific theory that is more provable than disputable . .. however who is to say that God is not the force guiding evolution .. . I surely do not know the answer and would be skeptical of anyone who says they do.

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Jazman . . .I think it fires people up because it is a personal issue. . . .just like abortion, gay marriage, etc. People have strong feelings about these issues and probably bad experiences in debating them previously with others. Everyone should feel good about throwing their opinion/beliefs out there. Comparing and contrasting views different from your own is really the only way to evaluate your own beliefs and affirm them or not. I feel just as strongly that no one should be bashed for their views, as I do that no one should have others views pushed upon them. I personally am Agnositic and used to be UCC Christian. I believe in evolution as a scientific theory that is more provable than disputable . .. however who is to say that God is not the force guiding evolution .. . I surely do not know the answer and would be skeptical of anyone who says they do.

 

Wow! Very well said.

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Boy this thread has legs. :) I thought it would die after everybody got their licks in. Thanks chizmniz for saying that. It takes courage to say that on a board like this. I knew that there were other faith people out there but I also know it isn't always easy to stand-up for what you believe in. Some people may think that if they say anything, the "big dogs" will think they are a freak and won't answer their posts. It does make me think about Simon Peter. There was lots of conversation going on about Jesus and so He asked Peter "Who do you say that I AM?" and Peter said "You are the Christ, Son of the living God?" Jesus then told him that it wasn't flesh and blood that revealed that to him but His Father in Heaven. He also referred to Peter as a Rock. Yet it was Peter who after Christ was captured that denied him three times while surrounded by an angry mob.

 

Some have suggested that I have not considered other possibilities. But the real truth is that I have considered many possibilities. When I was about 20 and in college, I went through a period when I questioned everything and I wondered about God. Then for several months I couldn't stop thinking about Him. Everyday for months whenever I had time to myself. Did He exist? Who He was? What does He do? One day after work, I was waiting for a shuttle to the campus when a girl walks up and starts talking to me. She is what some of you would call a nutjob because right out of the blue she starts talking about God and Jesus. Well that was fine on the street but she kept doing it on the shuttle bus. Out loud! Around other people! I could tell she was a bit nervous but she didn't ask me to say the sinner's prayer or anything. I think mainly she just gave me her testimony. I was a little embarrassed but everything she said 'bore witness' with my spirit. In other words, I knew that God sent her to talk to me. By the time the ride was over and we parted ways, I was really impressed with two things: 1. God really loved me enough to send this girl just to talk to me. 2. Man she was bold! She didn't care what the people on the shuttle thought.

 

So I guess the point is that if you seek God, you will find Him. The Bible says that God is the Truth. I really believe that if you honestly seek the truth you will find it. After that encounter I accepted Christ and the Bible started to become clearer to me. Of course I don't have all the answers, but I am always learning. I don't believe we evolved from apes because it is contrary to God's Word. It is interesting though how this has fired some people up. Ask yourself why this made some of you so angry? I wasn't trying to force it on anybody. I was ready to let it die yet I keep getting called a nutjob or nutball or ignorant or some profanity. Kind of like that mob around Peter. Why can't you agree to disagree? In the end I think this may have helped someone, dare I say.. impress them.

 

It's all good.

 

Can't god be a she? :)

 

You conservatives are so sexist! :P

Edited by Havok.Dzn

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A "board like this"? This is not a liberal board. This is simply a board whose majority of visitors are extremely well-educated.

 

And yeah, it takes a lot of "courage" to out yourself as a complete moron in the aforementioned company.

 

Props.

 

Thanks chizmniz for saying that. It takes courage to say that on a board like this.

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some ancient wisdom:

Yoga Sutras 1.33

In relationships, the mind becomes purified by

  1. cultivating feelings of friendliness towards those who are happy
  2. compassion for those who are suffering
  3. goodwill towards those who are virtuous
  4. and indifference or neutrality towards those we perceive as wicked or evil.

(maitri karuna mudita upekshanam sukha duhka punya apunya vishayanam bhavanatah chitta prasadanam)

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If I had a dollar for every babbling woman that came to me to talk about faith.. Id be pretty rich. Ever see that movie bible camp? They're basically training kids to be creepy.

The fact that only once a girl came up to you is somewhat surprising to me. The odds that another person has 'faith' on a board like 'this' is however, not surprisng considering the US christian population is 32%.

 

Lets talk about scientology.. Now theres a religion we haven't talked enough about on here.. ;)

 

Boy this thread has legs. :) I thought it would die after everybody got their licks in. Thanks chizmniz for saying that. It takes courage to say that on a board like this. I knew that there were other faith people out there but I also know it isn't always easy to stand-up for what you believe in. Some people may think that if they say anything, the "big dogs" will think they are a freak and won't answer their posts. It does make me think about Simon Peter. There was lots of conversation going on about Jesus and so He asked Peter "Who do you say that I AM?" and Peter said "You are the Christ, Son of the living God?" Jesus then told him that it wasn't flesh and blood that revealed that to him but His Father in Heaven. He also referred to Peter as a Rock. Yet it was Peter who after Christ was captured that denied him three times while surrounded by an angry mob.

 

Some have suggested that I have not considered other possibilities. But the real truth is that I have considered many possibilities. When I was about 20 and in college, I went through a period when I questioned everything and I wondered about God. Then for several months I couldn't stop thinking about Him. Everyday for months whenever I had time to myself. Did He exist? Who He was? What does He do? One day after work, I was waiting for a shuttle to the campus when a girl walks up and starts talking to me. She is what some of you would call a nutjob because right out of the blue she starts talking about God and Jesus. Well that was fine on the street but she kept doing it on the shuttle bus. Out loud! Around other people! I could tell she was a bit nervous but she didn't ask me to say the sinner's prayer or anything. I think mainly she just gave me her testimony. I was a little embarrassed but everything she said 'bore witness' with my spirit. In other words, I knew that God sent her to talk to me. By the time the ride was over and we parted ways, I was really impressed with two things: 1. God really loved me enough to send this girl just to talk to me. 2. Man she was bold! She didn't care what the people on the shuttle thought.

 

So I guess the point is that if you seek God, you will find Him. The Bible says that God is the Truth. I really believe that if you honestly seek the truth you will find it. After that encounter I accepted Christ and the Bible started to become clearer to me. Of course I don't have all the answers, but I am always learning. I don't believe we evolved from apes because it is contrary to God's Word. It is interesting though how this has fired some people up. Ask yourself why this made some of you so angry? I wasn't trying to force it on anybody. I was ready to let it die yet I keep getting called a nutjob, nutball or ignorant or some profanity or moron. Kind of like that mob around Peter. Why can't you agree to disagree? In the end I think this may have helped someone, dare I say.. impress them.

 

It's all good.

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The fact that only once a girl came up to you is somewhat surprising to me.

 

This is not a fact. I never said that. I live in the city. People always approach you. You guys assume way too much.

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i thought jazman put joe to bed...

 

honestly, i dont like to be a dick, and jazman and i would probably get along great. i guess one function that i like about the internet is it being a pure idea space with less interpersonal complications. this is also a forum full of people usually deeply skilled at continued learning. i would just hope christians are open to the continued quest for truth, justice and progress, and i wouldn't mind seeing moderates take back their faiths from the psychopath manipulators and blind fools that do their bidding.

 

what if there was a god, but he was a space traveling humanoid with insane super-powers, who was a mean bastard (i mean, he is father and motherless) who came back from millenia out in space, and showed up in a meat covered dick shaped spaceship for some revelation style armegeddon. would christians still believe and 'love' their creator? personally, i think its all a metaphor for the our best selves, choosing the right path. it just sucks to me, compared to buddhist meditation which i have been into for the past 2 years, how authoritarian and sectarian theist religions are, when at their core, the principles are basically buddhist principles, just with way more "my dad can beat up your dad" mixed in.

 

why is it that often the "america is the greatest nation people" have traveled the least, and the dogmatic theists know the least about other religions, and have the least patience to trust that ultimately their god is the judge, and has it all taken care of. I also wouldn't mind a little more outrage from christians over non-embryonic war deaths.

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