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jazman

Joe The Plumber?

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Dude where did I call YOU an asshole? I just called those close minded people who only vote with one eye assholes. I am talking about the Evangelical base, which, under the now resigned (hypocrite, we all know what happened) Ted Haggard, helped Bush win the election TWICE. If you fit under this category then you might be offended by my comment. If you vote for Republican, you are doing a disservice to ALL Americans. Friends don't let friends vote Republican. I mean how can you turn a blind eye towards what Bush and his cronies have been doing for the past 8 years? Oh that's right, your religion is causing you to think otherwise.

 

If you are educated and know the difference between a good candidate and reasons for voting, then you know what to do.

 

Since I have no "belief system" or "faith", you can't attack what I say because mine is just a personal and logical opinion (from my perspective). You can try to debunk it, and I will back up my claims again and again with whatever information I've learned and observed over the years. You cannot hurt me by talking negatively about what I've said before. I don't have to answer to anyone when I sleep at night, unlike some people ;)

The only option you have left in this situation is Ad hominem attacks, which the religious zealots are good at doing. Not that I'm calling you the latter. I am speaking in general terms here.

 

you didn't specifically call ME an asshole, you trashed what I believe.....I'm not ragging on you for having that opinion at all, i'm ragging on you for the way you came about it......the first 3-4 paragraphs of that post where how "the bible was a fairy tale".....that's what offended me.....I'm not a republican....I'm not voting for Mccain....and I AM Catholic.......All i'm saying is the next time you make a point, especially on religion....regardless of what you believe or not...be a little more thoughtful and try not to shit on someone. btw, I do apologize to you though for insinuating you we an asshole, you just acted like one lol.

 

peace.

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you didn't specifically call ME an asshole, you trashed what I believe.....I'm not ragging on you for having that opinion at all, i'm ragging on you for the way you came about it......the first 3-4 paragraphs of that post where how "the bible was a fairy tale".....that's what offended me.....I'm not a republican....I'm not voting for Mccain....and I AM Catholic.......All i'm saying is the next time you make a point, especially on religion....regardless of what you believe or not...be a little more thoughtful and try not to shit on someone. btw, I do apologize to you though for insinuating you we an asshole, you just acted like one lol.

 

peace.

 

Um I didn't trash what you believed, I just stated what I think of it. I can't do that? We both live in the U.S. and freedom of speech is our first amendment. I didn't mean to offend you....however...

 

If you feel that calling the bible a fairy tale offends you, then you are not sure about your belief. If you actually believed in it 100% of the time then you wouldn't be offended. I am a heathen after all, right?

 

Why is it that when someone asks hard hitting questions about a specific religion, it's out of the question? But when someone QUESTIONS a non-believer, it's ok? I don't get it.

 

I am going to create a new religion and call it Dontgiveashitology. If anyone wants to become a member of my cult, PM me.

 

I am not an Agnostic either...............even though I don't think you CAN prove that god doesn't exist. I just don't like to label myself. I was born without religion (like C.Smith mentioned)...and yes I was Christened, but I was a kid, wtf did I know? If I had a choice, I would say "no",

 

Religion comes down to one thing: people want a purpose. Everyone questions themselves in their lifetime. You don't need to follow Jesus' or Mohammad's teachings to actually do good things towards society. There have been many non-Believers (Err Atheists) that have contributed to society. Look it up.

 

And I'd rather have a beer with you than bicker over such useless topics. However, it feels good to state your opinions :)

No need to punch each other.

Edited by Havok.Dzn

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Not to further the argument but...

 

I'm an Atheist. (not to be confused with an agnostic - someone unsure if there is a god) I don't believe there is such a thing as an omnipotent/omniscient being ruling over the world - monotheist/polytheistic or otherwise. I don't believe that when I die I'm going anywhere, I'm just not going to exist anymore. I don't believe in heaven or hell. I don't believe in Satan, unless you count Karl Rove. I don't believe I have a destiny laid out for me. I don't believe that if I'm good I will be rewarded, and if I'm bad I will be punished in the afterlife. I don't believe in luck...I believe that probability plays a bigger role in people's lives and when you make a stupid choice, you get a stupid outcome.

 

I believe the exact same things but I would still label myself an agnostic. I used to think I was an 'atheist' until I read a book called 'The Singularity is Near' by Ray Kurzweil. The book argues that the evolution of a species (on an infinite time-line) can only have 2 possible outcomes: They will either destroy themselves or transcend their biology.

 

There is no reason for me to believe that this is the real universe, it could be a computer simulation. The way that everything follows exact rules, this system is a giant simulation, you can argue forever about who, if anything, created it. How long will it be before we reach a level of technology capable of simulating something of this scale and complexity?

 

I don't live my life as if I'm living in 'The Matrix' or something (not that anything would change) but I am open to the possibility. That's why I think I'm agnostic because I'm open to any crazy idea that could be possible on a long enough time-line. A super intelligent race of beings creating an advanced physics simulation seems much more likely than some magical omniscient pissed-off son-sacrificing father figure doing it. I'm open to any idea that is possible (magic is not) and that's why I call myself agnostic and not atheist.

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If this thread is going to turn into "THIS I BELIEVE..." then I feel it's only fair for me to tell you what I "believe" too. Or I guess I should say what I don't believe.

 

I'm an Atheist. (not to be confused with an agnostic - someone unsure if there is a god) I don't believe there is such a thing as an omnipotent/omniscient being ruling over the world - monotheist/polytheistic or otherwise. I don't believe that when I die I'm going anywhere, I'm just not going to exist anymore. I don't believe in heaven or hell. I don't believe in Satan, unless you count Karl Rove. I don't believe I have a destiny laid out for me. I don't believe that if I'm good I will be rewarded, and if I'm bad I will be punished in the afterlife. I don't believe in luck...I believe that probability plays a bigger role in people's lives and when you make a stupid choice, you get a stupid outcome.

 

I think if you need god in your life, then that's good for YOU. But don't pretend you don't judge me because I don't share your beliefs. The religious (my grandmother whom I love dearly included) have this way of pretending that they are righteous above all others. If that's what makes YOU happy, fine. But when it comes to voting in an election - maybe you should leave your religious values where they belong...At home.

 

What chaps my ass is that religious people in this country think they need to instill some kind of forced morality upon the rest of us sinners. I'm sorry, but when I want your opinion, I'll ask for it. I know that you think it's your obligation to "save" me and others like me. But I find it so convenient that people who are "born again" (No offense Clint) are only born again when they hit rock bottom and have already gotten all their sinning done. Ok, I get it... You learned your lesson, and now want to make sure others don't make those same mistakes by putting laws into place that don't allow people basic rights. Well, I think people should be allowed to make those mistakes for themselves...

 

I don't understand the double standard that immediately comes with the religion package. Ok, so you're Christian and I'm not, so that makes you better than me because...? some things that I've asked my religious family members...and all they can do is spew scripture back at me...

 

1. Why do you think it's any of your business how gay people live their lives?

2. Why do you think that my rights as a woman has anything to do with your religious "values?"

3. What actually was the story of Immaculate Conception? (ALL of the Christians I've asked got this wrong for the record.)

4. How does voting Republican make you a better Christian? Is it all the tax cuts for the wealthy? Is it the limitations on human rights? Is it the war-mongering? What is it exactly that attracts you to it? Because I'd like to know.

5. If you're so against the government having control over your day to day life, then why do you so insistently want the government to have control over mine?

 

I just feel like this thread has gone so willy nilly that I shouldn't catch slack for this post.

Obama '08

fb

 

Hey fb,

 

Ok this is just MY opinion on some of the things you have posted and this is how I live my life. I base my life off the Bible as best I can (i am not perfect). I treat others with respect as long as I am shown respect back. I am not one to throw my faith at anyone. If you don't believe in Christ I don't think its my obligation to direct you to Him. Everyone of my dearest friends are either Atheist or Agnostic and not once have I forced my faith on them. If they want to go to church with me some Sunday then I would gladly pick them up. I get people all the time that push their views and opinions on me when they find out that I am a Christian. They tell me how wrong I am and how I am stupid to base my life off of a faith and not off of proof. Thats why I think that some christians are starting to spout off at the mouth. They are so sick of being told not to say anything about their religion and to "keep it at home" when everyone else can say whatever they want about either their non christian religion or their proof based evolution or whatever. No I am not the smartest guy out there. No I am not a scholar. I don't know everything about the bible. But I know what I believe in and thats that.

 

To answer just a couple of your questions in My opinion.

 

1. God loves everyone. Gay or not. The church I go to accepts everyone and does not discriminate about any of that. I don't judge people. I am supposed to love people no matter what and when asked let people know that God still loves them. I don't care how you live your life. Whoever makes you happy wether same sex or not is your own business.

2. I think the big problem with this is I believe that if an egg is fertilized that its a human being. I know that their are some exceptions but children are precious to me and God no matter what has happened to produce them. I have seen and read so many stories about late abortions and watching living breathing little boys and girls die after a few mins. That is just MY opinion.

3. If I was to answer this I would probably be wrong like you said. So I will not.

4. I am only voting republican because of my family. As you have probably read in previous posts. 2 brothers in law and a friend in the marines and dad and father in law involved in government military contracts. If I vote democrat the budget will get cut on all of the military and military contracts which is not good for them.

5. I don't want the government to hurt anyones rights. I want the government to help and be there for its people. To keep us safe. To make sure my family will get taken care of if they get sick or hurt. Thats all.

 

I answered your questions the best I could. I know that I will get flammed for this post probably on my lack of intelligence or something but thats MY opinion and thats why I am who I am.

 

Chad

Edited by chizmniz

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Um I didn't trash what you believed, I just stated what I think of it. I can't do that? We both live in the U.S. and freedom of speech is our first amendment. I didn't mean to offend you....however...

 

If you feel that calling the bible a fairy tale offends you, then you are not sure about your belief. If you actually believed in it 100% of the time then you wouldn't be offended. I am a heathen after all, right?

 

Why is it that when someone asks hard hitting questions about a specific religion, it's out of the question? But when someone QUESTIONS a non-believer, it's ok? I don't get it.

 

I am going to create a new religion and call it Dontgiveashitology. If anyone wants to become a member of my cult, PM me.

 

I am not an Agnostic either...............even though I don't think you CAN prove that god doesn't exist. I just don't like to label myself. I was born without religion (like C.Smith mentioned)...and yes I was Christened, but I was a kid, wtf did I know? If I had a choice, I would say "no",

 

Religion comes down to one thing: people want a purpose. Everyone questions themselves in their lifetime. You don't need to follow Jesus' or Mohammad's teachings to actually do good things towards society. There have been many non-Believers (Err Atheists) that have contributed to society. Look it up.

 

And I'd rather have a beer with you than bicker over such useless topics. However, it feels good to state your opinions :)

No need to punch each other.

 

I hope you don't think that because I'm catholic that I believe you're a heathen, or that I think you're evil and that you're no good. I understand that people are different, believe different things and have a right to voice their opinions.....

 

I think your original point that you were trying to make (during the bible is a fairy tale rant) was the whole "I'm voting the way God wants me to and that's for Mccain" junk? Like voting for Mccain is what God wants all Christians to do. It's without a doubt the stupidest thing I've ever heard. As a religious person it irritates me even more than someone calling the Bible a fairy tale...lol.

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3. What actually was the story of Immaculate Conception? (ALL of the Christians I've asked got this wrong for the record.)

 

What's so hard about this? What have you heard that was wrong?

 

all I can do is tell you what i've learned....am I going to be wrong? lol

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I actually do NOT believe that there is a God (of any kind.) I don't have a lack of belief about it like C.Smith suggests. I think you're actually right in terms of the "dictionary defition" of atheism...but whatever.

 

I think you mean to say that you actively Believe there is no god ("strong atheism")? Because what you just said was what I was saying ("weak atheism").

 

Eh, doesn't matter either way.

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@ Albert: I see what you're saying...but like I said, for me, it boils down to semantics. I feel like if I say I'm "agnostic" then it leaves room for discussion of the "possibility" that I don't know if there's a god. The truth is NO ONE knows...so it's a little silly to divvy it up between atheists or agnostics or believers in general. Like I said, it's just easier to say "atheist" than some long-winded philosophical debate. I don't really have much of a spark of possibility in my brain, and yes, one could argue that I'm being similar to those who DO believe without qualification...I guess I just see it the reverse of that. Do I think anything is possible? Yes. Do I think that I'll ever experience it? No.

 

@ Chad: I appreciate your point of view...and I don't think there's anything wrong with having a firm belief. I do take issue with religion when it becomes a matter of national policy. And you may or may not be the kind of person who pre-judges or wants to "save" others who don't have your same beliefs, I don't know you, so I can't say anything about you. But I do know my family. And I do have born-again Christians in my family. And when I talk to those people, who I love, I want to bash my head against a wall, because that's what it feels like. They are exactly the kind of people who want to force their beliefs on others, and they are exactly the kind of people who think being gay is a sin or a sickness or some kind of perversion (as if they even know what gay peoples' lives are like!)

 

They are also the exact kind of people who think that the government should tell women how to live their lives and whether or not I have the right to control my body. I don't know if you're catholic, but if you are, you understand that they think every sperm is sacred. According to them, masturbation is a sin for men, but you don't see anyone passing laws about it. It's a matter of difference of opinion. If these people truly want to save babies lives, then maybe they should read a little bit about stem cell research and all the good it can do for the kids who get leukemia, or other terminal diseases that affect way too many children. If we're talking about abortion in terms of PRO LIFE and PRO CHOICE, the ones who think that the option should be there for women in situations where there is a very difficult decision made as to whether or not the pregnancy should be terminated, well, the "faithful" will always disagree with me. And that's fine...if you don't believe in the right to have an abortion, don't have one. And I hope your family is never in a situation where you would need to decide such a thing. But if you are, and you don't have a choice, then what? Do you resort to the old ways of doing things? Dangerous back alley procedures? In this day and age, I don't think women need to be treated like children who can't make decisions for themselves on what is right and wrong. Republicans trust that the free market will make the right decision, yet women can't? Preposterous, and frankly insulting.

 

I think that my moral compass is pretty sound. My parents raised me to respect others, work hard, and expect very little from life unless I make it myself. They're not perfect, and neither am I. I don't want to come off as pissing on your belief system...Like I said before, if it works for you, cool. It just doesn't work for me.

;)

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I think that my moral compass is pretty sound. My parents raised me to respect others, work hard, and expect very little from life unless I make it myself. They're not perfect, and neither am I. I don't want to come off as pissing on your belief system...Like I said before, if it works for you, cool. It just doesn't work for me.

;)

 

I can honestly say that is the best line of this entire 800 page thread.

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its just weird how you christians are hyping yourself as christians, shouldn't you be out feeding the poor, fighting imperialism, death penalties, loving your enemies, and opposing the death and destruction required to keep gas cheap in the U.S.

 

thats right i said cheap gas, its much more expensive in many other countries, except a few places like iran and venezuela. On the bus home the other day, there were some young lifers who were just so stoked about gas nearing the 3 dollar mark, just went on and on about it. like 3 dollar gas is a right. i would say you christians are very much like the romans, who prayed devoutly to their gods - see the mithras stuff, very similar to christianity - meanwhile their imperial forces raped, killed and robbed the outlying areas

 

for me it was so refresshing to to get involved in buddhism, i wish i could work harder at it, but the sect im involved in is so not cultish, self propagating, cancerous, and is just wonderful to be around a tradition of meditation and mindfulness without all the guilt, sci-fi, and mythology. i invite you to read living buddha, living christ by thich nhat han, its a good into to christians of buddhism, which i think was a zeitgeist that inspired the historical jesus. but the stuff being peddled here in the usa is just something else altogether. sort of everyone patting each other on the back with loads of denial and cognitive dissonance thrown in

 

are any of you right wing evangelical christians a little ashamed of pail, or yourselves for voting bush in '04? you should be

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What's so hard about this? What have you heard that was wrong?

 

all I can do is tell you what i've learned....am I going to be wrong? lol

Most christians believe that the immaculate conception was Jesus' conception. It isn't. Which tells me that if they are basing their fundamental beliefs on this and other very well known stories from the bible, then most of them are basing them on things they don't know much about. I was just surprised to see that they didn't know...yet they were ADAMANT that I was wrong when I told them the answer.

 

Edit: My grandmother went so far as to threaten to call her priest. I said..."Gram, do what you want, but...you'll feel silly asking your priest after like 68 years of going to church, and I don't want you to feel silly. Just look it up on the internet."

 

Edit II: FYI, 'twas MARY'S conception that was immaculate, (ie no stain of sin upon her soul like the rest of us assholes.) thus she was chosen...uhh...by God... to be the mother...uhhh of God.

Edited by Firebetty

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I think you mean to say that you actively Believe there is no god ("strong atheism")? Because what you just said was what I was saying ("weak atheism").

 

Eh, doesn't matter either way.

 

Chris, the word breaks down without belief, yeah belief in God. EVERYBODY believes in something. How can a person not believe anything? If you say there is no God then that's what you believe, not what you know, but what you believe to be true. And stop assuming that someone is feeding us stuff. We have as much intellect as you and we decide what we want to believe. I think this is a very interesting thread because people keep saying that they are tired of it yet they keep checking it and posting. And Firebetty the only people that I see judging in this thread are those opposed to people of faith. I haven't called anybody names or said anyone was going to hell. Look back over the entire 6 or 7 pages and you will see that we are the ones being judged. Wayne Newton has implied a couple of times that I was ignorant and without education. What if I said that all the Atheists were morons or didn't have an education? All Hell would break loose. I believe as the Bible teaches that God loves everyone, Gay, Straight, Atheist and Agnostics and everyone can be saved. The Apostle Paul was not a believer. In fact he killed Christians yet God used him to write over half of the New Testament. If you know or meet over zealous Christians who may preach fire and brimstone, then I'm sorry. But the truth is we all make mistakes. It's the goodness of God the lead people to repent and come to Him. And the good news is that while we were sinners, Christ died for the ungodly, or those without belief.

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fb- I am not a catholic. Just a non denominational christian. And I respect all your views and opinions. I agree with you about the Pro Life and Pro Choice and I disagree too. If I went any deeper into this it could be a huge post lol. My thoughts on being gay is this.... Its a choice not a sickness or perversion. Everyone has the right to choose the way they live there life and if thats the road they choose then awesome.

 

I am glad at least one conversation on this post is civil lol.

 

jablinko- Your funny. I actually do help feed and clothe the poor (and christians are not the only ones that help feed and clothe the poor. Any human being that feels the need to help will) I give to several charities and also help out my community. I am very grateful that I can afford gas during this time I know its hard for everyone all over the globe.

 

I am not perfect as I have said, No one is, no matter how religious anyone is no one is perfect expect for Christ. Everyone makes mistakes.

 

I am glad you found something that gives you peace and makes you happy. I know very little about Buddhism but thats ok with me.

 

I am not ashamed of anyone, everyone has the right to be as religious as they want to be, and I did vote for bush in '04.

 

hopefully you will stop putting me in the whole "christian class" everyone has their own opinions and beliefs about us "christians" but the fact is.. every single christian is different. Their are different denominations and every person reads and understands the Word differently. Not to say that any understanding of the Word is wrong. Its just the Word speaks to each person differently.

 

silatix- I am sorry lol. I got ADD too... it takes me forever just to type it up.

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But the truth is we all make mistakes. It's the goodness of God the lead people to repent and come to Him. And the good news is that while we were sinners, Christ died for the ungodly, or those without belief.

And to quote "The Big Lebowski"...."that's just like... you're opinion, man..."

Edited by Firebetty

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Chris, the word breaks down without belief, yeah belief in God. EVERYBODY believes in something. How can a person not believe anything? If you say there is no God then that's what you believe, not what you know, but what you believe to be true. And stop assuming that someone is feeding us stuff. We have as much intellect as you and we decide what we want to believe. I think this is a very interesting thread because people keep saying that they are tired of it yet they keep checking it and posting. And Firebetty the only people that I see judging in this thread are those opposed to people of faith. I haven't called anybody names or said anyone was going to hell. Look back over the entire 6 or 7 pages and you will see that we are the ones being judged. Wayne Newton has implied a couple of times that I was ignorant and without education. What if I said that all the Atheists were morons or didn't have an education? All Hell would break loose. I believe as the Bible teaches that God loves everyone, Gay, Straight, Atheist and Agnostics and everyone can be saved. The Apostle Paul was not a believer. In fact he killed Christians yet God used him to write over half of the New Testament. If you know or meet over zealous Christians who may preach fire and brimstone, then I'm sorry. But the truth is we all make mistakes. It's the goodness of God the lead people to repent and come to Him. And the good news is that while we were sinners, Christ died for the ungodly, or those without belief.

 

A person can believe in something, but not of higher power.

 

Personally I don't need to answer to anyone for my actions. I am responsible for the outcome of my actions. No one directed me to do anything. Does that make me insane oh holy one?

 

This is a hot topic because there are no right answers. However, it is very easy for us non believers to notice the naivete of the religious people. I sometimes chuckle at the things religious people say.

 

"I believe as the Bible teaches that God loves everyone, Gay, Straight, Atheist and Agnostics and everyone can be saved."

 

That's just sad, dude. Makes me grind my teeth. You just called everyone who doesn't believe in YOUR god "douches" but in a nice way. Is the allah better than your god? If you don't want to put people into categories, please don't mention "saving" someone. I don't think anyone here needs to be "saved" (Whatever the feck that means). Reminds me of the weirdo Jehova witnesses running around door to door.

 

"It's the goodness of God the lead people to repent and come to Him. And the good news is that while we were sinners, Christ died for the ungodly, or those without belief."

 

Seriously, where do you get this stuff? Sounds a bit cultish (sp?) to me. You just want others to feel bad for not being a believer, don't ya? Sorry, but I feel proud of the way I think and see the world. You can live in your tiny bubble as long as you like. I don't know why religious people think that non believers are these angry and sadistic individuals. Anyone that knows me knows that I am very caring and kind, but a bit of an asshole. I've met more religious assholes than non believing assholes.

 

Another pet peeve that I have with you religious folks is WHY there are so many branches off Christianity. One "church" believes that homosexuality is a disease and a sin, another church accepts them? Wtf? Make up your damn minds (pun intended).

 

/rant off

 

 

And to quote "The Big Lebowski"...."that's just like... you're opinion, man..."

 

 

LMFAO, I was watching it again last weekend.

 

"I am the walrus"

"SHUT THE FUCK UP DONNY! YOU'RE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT!"

Edited by Havok.Dzn

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Jablinko, it is what you make it.

 

I was raised Catholic...I believe in the bible...but I'm far from what you think. I don't preach to people, I don't believe that if you're gay you're going to hell. You probably think I believe being gay is a choice.....no. I never thought about being heterosexual...i never took time to choose...so how can I believe the opposite of someone else? I believe abortion is a sin, do i think that the government should have the say so to stop a woman from getting one? no. That decision is between her and God (or whomever she has to deal with or doesn't want to deal with).

 

I listened to the debates with an open mind. I went into them fresh and not leaning one way or the other......i researched the issues and made a decision by the last debate. I'm voting for Obama.

 

btw, his healthcare reform is what maters to me the most.....my son is in his 3rd year or remission from cancer. I was let go from my job in April and I've been paying COBRA since then.....$900 a month in fact. I've gotten a new gig, insurance hasn't kicked in yet....but if they tell me they won't cover my son on anything pre-existing for a year or 2 then what? hmm. Mccain wants to give us 5g's to get our own coverage....pick and choose....well...we all know how great buying a car is...that's what health care will be like....but alot worse.

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Anthony, props dude for being sensible :)

And hope everything goes good with your situation.

 

I watched some of the debates and both lacked alot. Politicians make alot of promises, they only keep 20% of their promises after entering the white house.

 

I'm voting for anyone that's not McCain. Read up on this incompetent buffoon, the more you know about him, the more you will see that this guy was never a "maverick" but rather a daddies boy, just like Bush. Hell, I might even vote for the Greenparty.

Edited by Havok.Dzn

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If you say there is no God then that's what you believe, not what you know, but what you believe to be true.

 

Well, in simplifying the definition of "theist" in my previous post, I left out the possibility that somebody wouldn't get the implication it had to do with "Belief in gods" as opposed to "Belief in ANYTHING". I believe I am tired right now but yet I am still an atheist.

 

SO.....Here's the definition of Theist.

 

I believe in your god as much as you believe in a fire hydrant created the universe. Does that make you actively against Hyndraintism? No. I'm sure it's never crossed your mind. And I don't think you would be foolish enough to claim as a FACT that a hydrant does NOT rule the universe. Because none of know if that's true or not. And having a "hunch" that it isn't the ruler of the universe is not a belief. It's just a reaction to what is probably foolishness. And I believe somebody once said:

 

... that wouldn't be faith, that would be foolishness.

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Well, in simplifying the definition of "theist" in my previous post, I left out the possibility that somebody wouldn't get the implication it had to do with "Belief in gods" as opposed to "Belief in ANYTHING". I believe I am tired right now but yet I am still an atheist.

 

SO.....Here's the definition of Theist.

 

I believe in your god as much as you believe in a fire hydrant created the universe. Does that make you actively against Hyndraintism? No. I'm sure it's never crossed your mind. And I don't think you would be foolish enough to claim as a FACT that a hydrant does NOT rule the universe. Because none of know if that's true or not. And having a "hunch" that it isn't the ruler of the universe is not a belief. It's just a reaction to what is probably foolishness. And I believe somebody once said:

 

Whaaaa?

 

You're right dude. You are tired. Go to bed. You can always thrash what I believe tomorrow when your head is clear. :)

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"I believe as the Bible teaches that God loves everyone, Gay, Straight, Atheist and Agnostics and everyone can be saved."

 

That's just sad, dude. Makes me grind my teeth. You just called everyone who doesn't believe in YOUR god "douches" but in a nice way.

 

No I was just paraphrasing John 3:16.

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Guest Sao_Bento
Wayne Newton has implied a couple of times that I was ignorant and without education.

I did too! Don't forget me. And, quite honestly, you've proven my original statements correct in nearly every post you've made. You've demonstrated that you're not very versed in religion or philosophy beyond your own narrow view. Even the average community college student in a world religions class would be able to refer to many long standing intellectual arguments to support your position. The idea that you're not aware of any of them pretty much confirms my original assumptions. For instance, in your last post, you assert that everyone believes in something, even atheists. Most intelligent people would immediately think “oh yeah, what about Nihilism?”, but I guess they didn't teach Nietzsche in Sunday school.

 

As the one who started all this, let me point out that the original point was not to bash religious people, jazman, or Christians in general, but that special sub-sect of Extremist American Christianity that sees their belief system as a valid substitution for an education . Because of their supreme confidence that they already know the answer, they actively go out of their way to avoid learning. Forget that the Vatican recognizes the theory of evolution as valid science. Forget that common sense dictates that evolution and creationism are not at odds. Forget the great contributions to science and philosophy by myriad Christian scholars like St. Thomas Aquinas (I guess you'd have to know that stuff in order to forget it). For the Sarah Palin's of the world, their lack of understanding something is no impediment to their ability to judge it and tell you what to think about it. Yes this thread crossed from political to religious because of the religious political people in our lives - Bush is a prime example of this incredibly dangerous approach. He works "from the gut". No need for research or detail - just go by how it feels. “Truthiness’” is the term coined by Stephen Colbert to describe the approach - if it seems true to me, it must be.

 

I'm generally a pretty tolerant person, but one thing I absolutely detest is this self-righteous rejection of learning (yes, to deny evolution is to completely reject the scientific method). When any of us takes the time to learn, we advance the whole of humanity (how do you think we got TANG, damnit!?). When we close our eyes and plug our ears while insisting we already know the answers, we deny progress. We can see the impact of this in the Middle East now. Once home to some of the worlds greatest scientists and mathematicians (No, John the Baptist did not invent the concept of 0 or build the pyramids), many parts of the Middle East today are reduced to poverty and ignorance due to the influence of religious extremists and their imposition of a culture that tells you that religion teaches you everything that you need to know - just like the folks I'm talking about here in the US.

 

No one is asking you to not believe in god, just to “get in the game” a bit - endeavor to question and learn with the rest of us and stop being an anchor around our collective necks.

 

“A History of Knowledge” would be a good place to start

http://www.amazon.com/History-Knowledge-Pa...9961&sr=8-1

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Whaaaa?

 

You're right dude. You are tired. Go to bed. You can always thrash what I believe tomorrow when your head is clear. :)

 

I love how you never face points. If you can't understand that simple post than I'm talking to a wall.

 

I broke my own rule in this thread. I once came to the conclusion long ago that humans are just built two different ways. One that feels that reality and logic are the priorities and those that think that emotion and symbolism are a priority. And never the 'tween shall meet so it's pointless debating. You can't play by one person's rules and expect the other to understand. One side post lines from old stories and expect that to make a point. And the other side uses rational and evidence which the "other side" apparently can't understand enough so much that they claim I'm tired instead of using a few synapses to comprehend a simple point (Which was only an example). Too bad.

 

Oh well. I'm done.

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