Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
jazman

Joe The Plumber?

Recommended Posts

you believe scripture not to be proof, some of us do. You learn from history books that the Revolutionary War, Civil War, about how George Washington was the first President and everything else dating back to who knows when to be true.....how is the Bible not the same? I believe in God, but that doesn't mean I disregard science.

 

What the eff?

 

The difference between the Bible and the other things you mentioned is that The Revolutionary war, Civil War, and George Washington ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Are you serious dude? Is this your logic?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What the eff?

 

The difference between the Bible and the other things you mentioned is that The Revolutionary war, Civil War, and George Washington ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Are you serious dude? Is this your logic?

 

uh, yep. Moses, Noah's Arc, Jesus.......The Bible references real people, real cultures, real places. Look...I'm not preaching to anyone, i'm not trying to change anyone, I'm not downing anyone....but if a conversation pops up and I notice what I believe in is being mocked...then I will say something.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Sao_Bento
uh, yep. Moses, Noah's Arc, Jesus.......The Bible references real people, real cultures, real places. Look...I'm not preaching to anyone, i'm not trying to change anyone, I'm not downing anyone....but if a conversation pops up and I notice what I believe in is being mocked...then I will say something.

By all means, make an intelligent argument. Start by explaining how you know that those things were real.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To Quote George Michael...

 

"Well I guess it would be nice, if I could touch your body...

I know not every-body has got a body like you.

OH

But I gotta think twice, before I give my heart away

and I know all the games you play,

because I play them too.

OH

But I need some time out from that emotion,

time to pick my heart up off the floor.

And when that love comes down without devotion

Well it takes a strong man baby,

but I'm showing you the door...

 

cuz I gotta have FAITH..

I gotta have FAI-ITHH.

Because I gotta have Faith a faith a faith.

 

I gotta have Faith a faith a faith ahhh!"

Edited by Firebetty

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
uh, yep. Moses, Noah's Arc, Jesus.......The Bible references real people, real cultures, real places. Look...I'm not preaching to anyone, i'm not trying to change anyone, I'm not downing anyone....but if a conversation pops up and I notice what I believe in is being mocked...then I will say something.

 

Um there are way too many witnessed accounts to the Revolutionary War. Are you saying it's as real as the stories in the Bible? :\

I am not mocking your beliefs, but since you are trying to compare something that actually HAPPENED to something that's close to a myth, I have a problem with that.

 

Who were the witnesses to Jesus' disappearance? The apostles? Do we have any descendants from them that can re-tell their stories?

 

I don't get what you're trying to say.

 

Also find me Noah's Arc, I'll give you a cookie.

 

I'm sure there was a cool dude named Jesus. People just wanted to dabble in monotheism and who else better than a martyred carpenter?

 

Following FireBetty's shoes, I will quote a scripture from the great Tupac Shakur the Second.

 

"Picture perfect, I paint a perfect picture

Bomb the hoochies with precision my intention's to get richer

With the S-N double-O-P, Dogg my fuckin homey

Youse a cold ass nigga on them hogs

 

So now they got us laced

Two multimillionare motherfuckers catchin cases (mmm)

Bitches get ready for the throwdown, the shit's about to go down

Uhh, me and Snoop about to clown

I'm "Losin My Religion", I'm vicious on these stool pigeons

You might be deep in this game, but you got the rules missin

Niggaz be actin like they savage, they out to get the cabbage

I got, nuthin but love, for my niggaz livin lavish

 

Now follow as we riiiiide

Motherfuck the rest, two of the best from the West side

And I can make you famous

Niggaz been dyin for years, so how could they blame us

I live in fear of a felony

I never stop bailin these, motherfuckin G's

If ya got it better flaunt it, another warrant

2 of Amerikaz Most Wanted"

Edited by Havok.Dzn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

believe what you wish, that's the greatness of free will.

 

but as to proof of noah's arc:

 

Genesis 9:12

 

And God said, "This is the sign of the covenant I am making between me and you and every living creature with you, a covenant for all generations to come: I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth. Whenever I bring clouds over the earth and the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will remember my covenant between me and you and all living creatures of every kind. Never again will the waters become a flood to destroy all life. Whenever the rainbow appears in the clouds, I will see it and remember the everlasting covenant between God and all living creatures of every kind on the earth." So God said to Noah, "This is the sign of the covenant I have established between me and all life on the earth."

 

lol @ you quoting a pac song....but you picked the wrong one.

 

Who do you believe in?

Is it Buddah, Jehovah, or Jah? Or Allah?

Is it Jesus? Is it God? Or is just yourself?

Definately not to be imposed, being a demon

Because this is the joy of believing!

Men, to believe in yourselves

But for sure, the higher power

Resides only to ride in the heart of the true

From the soul, of the man; for truth never has an alibi

In the poetry, or in it's realm

That's what pulls all words together

Just to understand, that every man, is his OWN man

And only man can satisfy the man

Only the soul of the man, the feelings of the man

The for realness of the man

You can't shake the man when you feel the man you know the man

And you gotta call yourself because you are that man

 

Who do you believe in?

I put my faith in God, blessed and still breathin

 

Who do you believe in? Put my faith in God, and

Blessed and still breathin

 

Even though it's hard (Who do you believe in?)

That's who I believe in (Put my faith in God)

Before I'm leavin (Even though it's hard)

I'm askin the grievin

(Before I'm leavin I'm askin the grievin - who do you believe in?)

Who do you believe in? (Who do you believe in?)

Who do you (Blessed and still breathin)

Oh blessed, oh blessed

(Before I'm leavin I'm askin the grievin - who do you believe in?)

 

 

to each his own....that's all i'm saying. respect and peace.

Edited by anthonyc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
but as to proof of noah's arc:

 

Genesis 9:12

 

Havoc, stop torturing yourself. You know you won't even know where to begin with this last one. I know it makes sense to you that quoting fictional texts isn't evidence. But in some other people's brain wiring that makes sense and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

But you gotta admit there is a nice freedom about proving anything you want by quoting a book that somebody wrote. Wish I could do that. It would be nice. But there's that whole cause and effect part of my thinking that prohibits it. But maybe a god just wired me not to believe in anything about him. That would be clever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Noah's ark is (supposedly) located in Mount Ararat, Turkey, which is also where roman soldiers were ordered to crucify thousands of christian converts. Regardless of everything, the bible and its effects prove to be an interesting history.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Havoc, stop torturing yourself. You know you won't even know where to begin with this last one. I know it makes sense to you that quoting fictional texts isn't evidence. But in some other people's brain wiring that makes sense and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

But you gotta admit there is a nice freedom about proving anything you want by quoting a book that somebody wrote. Wish I could do that. It would be nice. But there's that whole cause and effect part of my thinking that prohibits it. But maybe a god just wired me not to believe in anything about him. That would be clever.

 

I know it seems a bit erratic that we keep going through the same loop, but I'm used to it. Feels like you're talking to a wall.... It is hard to debate with religious people who are close minded.

 

 

Noah's ark is (supposedly) located in Mount Ararat, Turkey, which is also where roman soldiers were ordered to crucify thousands of christian converts. Regardless of everything, the bible and its effects prove to be an interesting history.

 

It was actually in the Armenian Empire, now that it's part of Turkey (and they won't give it back).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Anyways, from now on, anything regarding religion and voting, I am going to reply with this:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2iie629.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
but as to proof of noah's arc:

Genesis 9:12

 

I love the way that creationists go all "sciencey" when trying to explain Noah's ark and the flood. Realizing that there is a problem getting every distinct species to fit, even into a boat bigger than a supertanker made out of wood, they say that Noah didn't put every species of land-dwelling animal on the ark, just every "kind" which is more akin to genus. This gets you down from millions of species, to just thousands. What they don't explain is how these representatives then lead to species diversity we have now - maybe they evolved!

There is a nice idea that Noah didn't need to collect the animals, as they just "turned up" and this explains why animals still have a migratory urge.

Feeding and mucking out? That is a lot of work for eight people! But what if all the animals went into hibernation, again this explains why some animals still do this.

Some maintain that there were dinosaurs on the ark, though you will be glad to know it was only a baby TRex (they are actually quite cute when they are little)

Others disagree, and see fossil creation and extinction as evidence for the flood.

 

What no-one explains is why God is so vindictive as to wipe out all but 8 human beings (plus nearly all the animals). OK he was worried about the sinfulness of man, but couldn't he have sent his only-begotten Son who taketh away the sins of the world to redeem mankind, rather than wiping them out? We are told that God is all knowing and never changing, but this seems a major shift in strategy

 

If God is this mean and arbitrary, why is it virtuous to worship, rather than criticise him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aren't most biblical stories like that though. Why give one group of people power over another. You'd think a 'loving' Gd wouldn't hate on another living human..

 

What no-one explains is why God is so vindictive as to wipe out all but 8 human beings (plus nearly all the animals). OK he was worried about the sinfulness of man, but couldn't he have sent his only-begotten Son who taketh away the sins of the world to redeem mankind, rather than wiping them out? We are told that God is all knowing and never changing, but this seems a major shift in strategy

 

If God is this mean and arbitrary, why is it virtuous to worship, rather than criticise him?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing with the bible is that i claims many things that are very hard to believe given our everydays experience.

The moment i face a claim i ask for evidence. The more the claim deviates from my every days experience the stronger the prove i demand.

If you tell me you have a goat in your garden, i accept this without prove on the ground of why should you lie about something so trivial.

If you claim someone walked on water i expect to be shown and i want a go at it myself. A 2000 year old collection of mostly second hand stories that contradict each other will not do it.

Where your proof fails big time is that it's all coming from a single source, the bible. Proof for the american revolution is widespread and you have literaly thousands of independent sources to learn from. Chances are however that you will find discrepancies between those sources that will make the exact happening of single events during the revolution questionable. In the end this will lead to you having a very valid theory on how the whole of the revolution went with some small parts in it that will remain unclear or need refinement once new sources of information become available.

This is a very common situation with science, you have very good evidence for most of the theory, but some parts simply can't be proven due to lack of information. You can make a hypothesis based on other experiences on what might be the missing part, but this can be invalidated anytime if you get new information on the topic. The big picture however remains.

Every other millenium you get something realy big, like the step from newtonian physics to our current idea on how space/time work. However even with such a big change and influx of new information the old theory is still valid, it has just been shown that it is not universaly valid but only in a small part of reality (incidentialy the part we perceive best with our senses). In the end it's a never ending process of refinement, building something big from many small parts. Actualy a bit like a giant Lego model where at some times you see that you used a wrong block and need to exchange it for a better fitting one. If a big change happens you might discover that the Statue you build is not on it's own but acutaly on an island that is just in front of a realy big city.

 

Creationists do not work this way. For their own theories they rely on proof that fails to meet the hard criteria scientists (and actualy most other people) set. On the other hand they claim that the failing of one small hypothesis in the framework of the big theory a scientist builds means the theory fails, which is simply not neccesarily the case. It's like building the statue of liberty out of Lego and someone sees that you accidentialy put a pink block in it somwhere and claims that what you build isn't the statue of liberty.

 

Cheers

Björn

 

PS: No idea where that text actualy came from, i read the thread and started to type, maybe a brainfart or maybe god told me to write it. If it's the later should i worry about copyright? From the bible we know that it likes to smite people for even lesser stuff than copyright infringement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The thing with the bible is that i claims many things that are very hard to believe given our everydays experience.

The moment i face a claim i ask for evidence. The more the claim deviates from my every days experience the stronger the prove i demand.

If you tell me you have a goat in your garden, i accept this without prove on the ground of why should you lie about something so trivial.

If you claim someone walked on water i expect to be shown and i want a go at it myself. A 2000 year old collection of mostly second hand stories that contradict each other will not do it.

Where your proof fails big time is that it's all coming from a single source, the bible. Proof for the american revolution is widespread and you have literaly thousands of independent sources to learn from. Chances are however that you will find discrepancies between those sources that will make the exact happening of single events during the revolution questionable. In the end this will lead to you having a very valid theory on how the whole of the revolution went with some small parts in it that will remain unclear or need refinement once new sources of information become available.

This is a very common situation with science, you have very good evidence for most of the theory, but some parts simply can't be proven due to lack of information. You can make a hypothesis based on other experiences on what might be the missing part, but this can be invalidated anytime if you get new information on the topic. The big picture however remains.

Every other millenium you get something realy big, like the step from newtonian physics to our current idea on how space/time work. However even with such a big change and influx of new information the old theory is still valid, it has just been shown that it is not universaly valid but only in a small part of reality (incidentialy the part we perceive best with our senses). In the end it's a never ending process of refinement, building something big from many small parts. Actualy a bit like a giant Lego model where at some times you see that you used a wrong block and need to exchange it for a better fitting one. If a big change happens you might discover that the Statue you build is not on it's own but acutaly on an island that is just in front of a realy big city.

 

Creationists do not work this way. For their own theories they rely on proof that fails to meet the hard criteria scientists (and actualy most other people) set. On the other hand they claim that the failing of one small hypothesis in the framework of the big theory a scientist builds means the theory fails, which is simply not neccesarily the case. It's like building the statue of liberty out of Lego and someone sees that you accidentialy put a pink block in it somwhere and claims that what you build isn't the statue of liberty.

 

Cheers

Björn

 

PS: No idea where that text actualy came from, i read the thread and started to type, maybe a brainfart or maybe god told me to write it. If it's the later should i worry about copyright? From the bible we know that it likes to smite people for even lesser stuff than copyright infringement.

 

This. Thanks Björn, couldn't have said it better myself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Asteroid hitting and causing life is as absurd to me I guess then me telling you God created the Sun, Moon and the stars.....

 

uh, yep. Moses, Noah's Arc, Jesus.......The Bible references real people, real cultures, real places. Look...I'm not preaching to anyone, i'm not trying to change anyone, I'm not downing anyone....but if a conversation pops up and I notice what I believe in is being mocked...then I will say something.

 

For the love of God.

 

At least say something that makes sense. If you believe in the scientific method (wich you state) then accept that you saying "that's just what i believe" will not do. Not by a long shot.

 

Understand that ie. the age of the earth is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of cold hard facts, what ever way you spin it. Don't for a minute think that somehow our arguments are somehow on the same level, beause in a court of law, you would lose reasoning like this.

 

Your circular logic is tiring at best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yo go Bjorn Marl! I read the quote first and saw the name Bjorn, and thought wow, couldn't be said better. Then I scroll up and it was Srek all along!

 

One thing to add just to put this debate in context...

 

For the great majority of human history, 'evidence' was not the primary means of creating world views. Human beings respond more readily to points of view backed by authority. What's the best authority? Anything that is either (1) supported by the rulers who held life-or-death power over you, (2) your clergy, (3) tradition (including the Bible, which was unreadable for most people until the last 200 years).

 

Even today this is true. We're seeing it on this thread.

 

And if you want to split hairs, I'm basing my world view on authority also because I simply trust that the people I believe are reading their evidence correctly. I don't have time to learn to read the data myself. I'm completely comfortable with this, because the alternative would be a conspiracy or a mistake on a massive, widespread basis among scientists, and that just ain't likely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And if you want to split hairs, I'm basing my world view on authority also because I simply trust that the people I believe are reading their evidence correctly. I don't have time to learn to read the data myself. I'm completely comfortable with this, because the alternative would be a conspiracy or a mistake on a massive, widespread basis among scientists, and that just ain't likely.

 

Exactly.

 

And this works, because you can see and use the 'products' of scientific progress every minute of your life. The scientific method proves itself over and over, modern society is based on progress and innovation.

If a theory is not correct, it will be replaced by another one that does work, and this way, we are progressing and growing, trying to better understand the universe.

 

My problem in this thread has been 'blind faith' in the authority of the Bible and general fundamentalism, wich CAN not coexist with the laws of physics as we know them today. The laws are all around us, our modern technology is based on evidence.

It is my experience that the US is one of the last 1st world countries that still has a market if you will, for 'crackpot religion'. In most of Europe, faith is a far more personal affair, and the Bible is seen as a guidance for a worldview if you will, that is not to be taken literally.

I think education is one of the main reasons. A school or even university teaching creationism instead of evolution would be unheard of. We do have classes in 'world religions', humanism in high school, but those classes are more to complement the curriculum, and are in no way imprinted in our minds as if it was biology or geometry. It's a guidance in dealing with spiritual subjects.

 

I think Christianity and Islam or any other religion for that matter, can learn a lot from Bhuddism. As the Dalai Lama states: the path to spiritual freedom is the path of knowledge and insight. For a Bhuddist, it is only natural to have a healthy interest in physics, as the Dalai lama himself takes an interest in quantum mechanics. Or the quote an interpreter of the Dalai lama:

 

"It is natural for Buddhists to be interested in science, " he says, "because science is the most complete and successful theory of the physical universe we have. The Buddhist pursuit of truth includes not only the nature of consciousness, about which modern science knows very little, but also the entire world of which we are conscious."

 

If all religions could be like this, then maybe, atheists (like myself) might be more than willing to try and imagine how faith and the existence of a supreme being could exist beyond some conceptual idea that is everything and nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In most of Europe ...... A school or even university teaching creationism instead of evolution would be unheard of.

Not for lack of trying though, last year in Hessia (a Bundesland (State) of germany) the minister of culture and education proposed to include creationism into the curriculum at schools.

Luckily she got sacked not long afterwards, but the idea alone of a government offical to propose such a thing is something that deeply worries me.

Education is bad enough already in germany, we don't have to cripple our children to make it worse.

 

Cheers

Björn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
And this works, because you can see and use the 'products' of scientific progress every minute of your life. The scientific method proves itself over and over, modern society is based on progress and innovation.

I walked away from the computer and realized as I watched an old Teletubby rerun that I didn't say this. You can see the evidence in action in every dancing pink Teletubby. I love this board.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If we look deep into our hearts, we know there is only one true Creator, the one who built this beautiful world in which we inhabit 24/7.

 

His name is Firemind.

 

Sure we haven't seen or heard from this divine being for over 2000 posts, but his teachings live on through the The Holy Trinity; Sao Bento, Govinda and Graymachine.

 

Firemind Bless You.

 

:)

Edited by toerag

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...