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Guest govinda

Current state of motion graphics (was EXOPOLIS)

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Guest igorschmigor

:D well, you know what i mean, it was a quote:

Well Igor it is a question of Scale I guess
.

I have the feeling i have to explain some of the statements i made. I don't want to hurt nobody or attack people for fun.

About that quote: I'm not sure if i got you right there but it sounds like you are trying to say that your definition of "real inovation" is set a little higher than mine and this being the reason for you not to see that kind of real inovation in other peoples work. What i'm trying to say is that it sounds strange to me when you say that the guy there on tv with the gold medal around his neck is a good athlete but not really fast. If your name was Ben Johnson that would make me understand that kind of statement (and that's why i turned it into a discussion about Jasfish's skills). But if you just say that you once saw Ben Johnson run it won't help me understand your attitude. It makes it even worse in my eyes if you're a 100m-runner yourself and should actually know how hard it is to even be among the ten best.

I'd be happy if we could all agree that the runners at the olympics are all really fast but Ben Johnson was just even faster (I'm not sure about that, i have no idea who actually ran the best time, i didn't follow the world records).

By the way, i think this is a good example because Johnson was disqualified for doping which means that he had an unfair advantage. The same is true about Matrix which was doped with an enormous budget and loads of programmers, special fx teams, pyrotechnicians, stuntmen and brandnew technology versus little teams of motion graphics studios of ten people with a few MACs and your average desktop software. I don't think you can define "truly original" by budgets and technology.

Of course Matrix was really great and it made all our eyes pop out and me too i hope for a new Matrix experience. I just don't expect to get that experience on TV in the commercials.

 

By the way, pasto and jasfish, there's nothing wrong with your skills, i really like your reels.

 

And forevercoolin, you got a good point about the technology thing. I once borrowed the book "type in motion" from the library and Kyle Coopers work was featured too. One of the statements i remember was that one of the reasons for this new kind of look was Coopers access to new software and good hardware at R/GA. In the early 90s compositing software wasn't that good yet and major advances were made in software and hardware during the mid 90s. Yes, Cooper was great, Cooper was original, but i guess if he hadn't been another designer would have created a brandnew look with the brandnew software capabilities at hand. People wouldn't have kept using after effects and combustion and whatever for the last ten years just to fade titles in and out. New technologies definitely boost creativity.

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Guest pasto
it sounds like you are trying to say that your definition of "real inovation" is set a little higher than mine

 

there ! now I understand, I didn't meant that at all, my english is not good enough, sorry, but I meant : the time scale (history), not the skill scale at all, (I congratulated you for your skills in another thread). I wouldn't have done any judgment on your aptitude to considerate graphic design. And by the way, your opinion is quite clear, and very interesting.

 

Sorry about this, I guess my english skills was the real problem ! :D

 

pasto

 

 

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Guest igorschmigor

Ah!!! Now i see the whole thread with different eyes! Sorry for this little misunderstanding. I never felt insulted about my skills though, i only showed technical skills, not creative ones. Recreating is so much easier than innovating. Your english isn't bad at all. Mine isn't perfect either.

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Guest Scorch

The last time I saw something truly original was Johnny Hardstaff's reel (available at www.rsafilms.com , Black Dog directors section). His PS2 promo is pretty mental, and I've never seen anything even similar.

 

Gmunk (Bradley Grosh) seems original too.

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Guest facial deluxe

Finaly, I don't know if I like to see other people motion graphic works. It often inhabit me and polute my mind, making me trying to do the same, and keep me bellow in the end. Takes time to assimilate. I found for inspiration, best things are coming from media that are far (a bit far) from mine.

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Guest borax
The last time I saw something truly original was Johnny Hardstaff's reel (available at www.rsafilms.com , Black Dog directors section). His PS2 promo is pretty mental, and I've never seen anything even similar.

That PS2 promo is some freaky shiz. Good stuff.

 

Still on the topic of originality, but on a slightly less motion graphicy note: in his reel there's also a part of the vid he did for FC Kahuna's 'Hayling'. When I first saw it on TV it reminded me a lot of Chris Cunninghams amazing video for 'All is Full of Love' by Björk (some stills here, and also on his reel at RSA).

 

The FC Kahuna vid had all the same elements; the whole industrial robot porn slow pulling/circling dolly shot thing again, so how original is that?

 

(Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't like the way it's done, I just found the similarities painfully obvious.)

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Guest Scorch

hardstaff of course did the radiohead promo before cunningham did the bjork one, so it's hard to tell who was first with that style, but my guess is they must work together anyway

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Guest Sao_Bento

>> I don't think the studios posted here at mograph just copy a trend, they might be heading in a similar direction using the same software and thereby discovering the same techniques<<

 

 

I see that as a problem. Are you saying that if all these people did it "right" they would have come up with so much stuff that looks exactly the same? By "doing it right", I mean sitting down with pen and paper, listing the goals the client wants to achieve, then developing an approach that meets those needs. I seriously doubt that everyone would have drawn that the same flat color stuff thinking it meets every clients needs. If so, then you are probably not helping the client articulate their needs adequately.

 

The bottom line is that people are not approaching these projects using valid design methods. I'm not a design school graduate, and I don't like everything about their ways, but the processes they teach exist for a reason - they work (on some levels, anyway). Instead, people are just developing a couple of visual tricks and then convincing their clients that this is the look they need. They're basically using the clients money to engage in these self masterbatory excuses for design.

 

 

OK, I'll name names -

 

Psyop - what a coincidence that all their clients needed the exact same look they came up with a few years ago. Sure it's evolved a bit, but who are you kidding?

 

Belief - I guess they decided that Sony's TV stations in India have the exact same needs as the health network, or whatever it was called. They re-hashed the EXACT SAME design for them. Thank god the Saleen stuff looks different.

 

Nando Costa/Nakd - Abstract illustrations are not the solution for everything. They are as boring as abstract 3D. "But he's a brasilero"

 

David Carson - OK, got it, one trick pony who doesn't look through the viewfinder when he takes pictures.

 

MK12 - the holy cow of motion design. Truly great stuff at an incredible level of complexity and technical mastery - but it's getting pretty old, don't you think?.

 

Freestyle collective, Fuel, Attik, Heavy, Gmunk, you don't even deserve your own paragraphic dis.

 

 

Sometimes clients have lots of set-in-stone ideas about emulating someone elses commercial (look at everything done by Adidas, Reebok, etc. that you thought was a Nike spot until the logo came up) But, isn't in an incredible conicidence that every client that walks into these studios comes out with the same look?

 

 

In my opinion, there are some who do it "right".

 

Kyle Cooper era Imaginary Forces (yes, I am aware that the aformentioned Bradley Grosh works there)

 

The BBC

RezN8

Trollback

Montgomery Cobb (not Co.)

UVPhactory

 

possibly Yu & Co, Hello Logan, and Blind

 

 

 

anyway, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

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Guest firemind

Sounds like the classic 'Styleshop' vs 'Proper Design' debate to me.

 

Both have validity in my view, though a styleshop generally has a shorter shelflife than 'proper' shops, it's star (like a replicant in Bladerunner) shines brighter during it's life.

 

Your point is shops like MK12 (motion graphics), Designers Republic (print), 2advanced (web)etc., etc. 'force' their style on every job they get, but more likely is they get those jobs BECAUSE of their style. Certain clients are always looking for the latest hip new thing, they NEED their styleshops to go and be their individual self and have the results make them lots and lots of money. Clients aren't poor helpless creatures waiting to get abused by these wretched evil styleshops that charge big bucks for "self masturbatory excuses for design".

 

And after a while, styleshops cease being 'hip'. They'll last a few years on the slower clients who are out of touch with their real target audience. After that, they either reinvent themsleves, or become a 'proper shop' ;-)

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Guest igorschmigor

Sao Bento: i think it's like firemind said, often comapanies and people are being chosen because of their style. Someone in india might have seen belief's work and said "we would like you to do something similar for us". You ask how probable it is that they both need to meet the same criteria. But ask yourself: does the station id that belief created work against the needs of Sony Entertainment television? I don't think so. In fact it works quite well. It's true that it looks very much the same as the work they've done before (me too i've forgotten who it was for but i know which one you mean). But at least they are just copying themselves not someone else, and nevertheless it was original the first time they did it. Many "serious corporate" design companies don't even have such a glorious first moment of great creativity. Besides, two station ids worldwide that look the same is still much better than hundreds of stations looking like NBC. And how many people in india are going to say "hey that looks just like the programme i saw on TV in america recently"? I guess not so many. About Psyop, who am i kidding? i don't know, you tell me. You say all their work looks the same. I don't think so. Does the AT&T look like Coflow look like Brazil? Not in my eyes. Some of their work looks similar to stuff they have done before, but i guess that's where we are back to people being chosen because of their style. Psyop was chosen for the Ford Streetka commercial by Ogilvy & Mather, a branding company. And i think Ogilvy did a good job there by chosing Psyop because they aren't following the trend with that commercial at all. The trend in car commercials was to use hardly any effects at all and tell short funny and intelligent stories with little action. The Ford Streetka commercial radically stands out from that.

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Guest Sao_Bento

My point is that it's hard to take your complaints about the mediocre state of motion design seriously when this is what you look to for guidance.

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Guest igorschmigor

:lol: that was my shortest answer ever, and actually i wanted to leave it like that but i'll add a few words.

You see, if doing it "right" means increasing a companies profit then we both just have different interests. I don't get turned on by marketing strategies and pie charts. If you say you just simply don't like the styles from the companies i mentioned then that would be an answer i'd simply accept. Of course, if a studio has a strong style of their own then people will recognize it, so it can't be reused too often. Just like when Giger made the concept art for Alien. Every other film that would be designed by Giger would look like an Alien-wannabe. But you can't come saying "Giger just doesn't do it right". What would the Alien movie have been like if it was designed by the people who made Battlestar Galactica?! So what i am saying is that some studios develeop a strong style of their own, a style that just doesn't come a dime a dozen, so they have a status similar to that of an Illustrator. Illustrators too have their own recognizable style and can't just switch from one look to another.

You say Rezn8 does it right. I don't dislike their work, but honestly, they just use extruded logos, lightbursts and movies projected onto 3d-Planes. The only creative decision they make is "are we going to use a blue or an orange-brown tone for it?".

I guess we can say that it all comes down to the question "is it legitamite for a mograph studio to develop and stick to a style of their own?". I think it will make it harder for that studio after a while to acquire new customers if they don't evolve but to me as a consumer it's great to know that there are studios out there that dare do something of their own. Of course i won't keep looking at Psyops Brazil-style animations for years, but never ever would it come to my mind to disrespect them for doing it twice, because it's awfully well done and beautiful in my eyes. That's the type of style that you just have to develop and can't reinvent for every new pitch.

 

p.s.: i agree on uvphactory, can't watch trollback cause it freezes my browser, some of the others are nice too, but i don't feel like turning this into a discussion like "he is better than him" "no, he's not" "yes he is". I've had my portion of that as a child discussing superheroes. Wether you prefer the more versatile (and maybe more conservative) studios or the more specialized trendy stylish ones, i think we can both agree that there are still enough people doing a good job out there to not complain; whatever angle you're looking from.

By the way, what do you mean by "Montgomery Cobb, not Co." Montgomery Co is nothing but the new name for Montgmoery Cobb. Do you mean, they were good before they changed their name?

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Guest Sao_Bento

I guess my real point is to question whether or not someone who produces slight variations on their "house style" for every client should be called a "designer". I'd say the classic definition of a designer is someone who helps the client solve a communications problem. That includes being involved in the whole process, from developing the initial idea to the execution. Sometimes that means helping clients resist the urge to copy someone else when it's not in the best interest of what they're trying to communicate. To me, it seems the "style shop" is not involved in solving any creative problem, only in producing a variation of their style which conforms to the clients script. This is more akin to a visual effects shop than an actual design firm. If that's what you want to do, fine. The motion graphics world is definitely made up of both "style shops" and actual designers as well as some who are a bit of both. As someone who considers myself a "designer", I feel that what I'm bringing to the table is a different skill set from what the "style shop" has to offer. The style shop idea just seems so short sighted to me. I think that in the long term, this approach will marginalize the industry and leave us with sweatshop work environments and a lot of stuff that looks exactly the same. I think that losing the diversity in anything is detrimental.

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Guest firemind

I guess my real point is to question whether or not someone who produces slight variations on their "house style" for every client should be called a "designer".

 

Label it illustration or art then. Done. You can live on your life being proud of being a 'real designer' while everyone else goes on making a living.

 

I'd say the classic definition of a designer is someone who helps the client solve a communications problem.

 

And how are styleshops failing here? You have an MTV or a Nike that has a vital need to communicate with their consumers in a way that entices, excites and involves their audience. Most 'regular' design shops just aren't up to the task. Different clients need different service providers.

 

I think that in the long term, this approach will marginalize the industry and leave us with sweatshop work environments and a lot of stuff that looks exactly the same. I think that losing the diversity in anything is detrimental.

 

You say that like you can actually stop it. Every design branch has sweatshops, basement hobbyists, etc, etc. The majority of ppl working in any design field are mediocre at best.

 

Let's celebrate companies that actually do something fresh, exciting and smart, whether they be styleshops or 'proper' shops.

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Guest timmy

hello. i'm timmy from mk12.

 

here are some things to think about:

 

mk12 isn't going to make sweat shops.

 

we don't come up with a shiny new visual trick and convince a client that this is the look that they need. that's a really dumb idea.

 

i don't think we have a "house style." nor are we a "styleshop." the most annoying thing is having to ape your own older work.

 

if a client wants you to copy, tell them no. integrity is much more important.

 

the best client is yourself. we take on client work so we can continue to do our own work.

 

we aren't "using the clients money to engage in these self masterbatory excuses for design." oh no. we are taking client money to do OUR OWN jerk-off artwork. not theirs.

 

the new in house piece we are working on has cowboys and astronauts in it. we are moving back to narrative with this one. i'm really excited to work on it. matt is working on the script right now.... the story outline is great.

 

stop overthinking style. it happens. it's happened. in all art forms. analog or digital. brushes or a mouse. photography or the moving picture. just you don't do it. and don't worry if other people do it. they'll stop. or they'll stop working all together. sooner or later.

 

mk12 just wants to make things.

 

i'd much prefer "artist" to the word "designer." (they are synonyms, ya know)

 

a "classic definition" of the word designer can not include the word "client." clients have nothing to do with actual designing. they just comission the artwork.

 

i think the classic definition of "designer" is: one who designs. here. this one is from webster's revised unabridged -- "One who designs, marks out, or plans; a contriver." the second definition is better: "One who produces or creates original works of art or decoration." see? no mention of the word client.

 

and yes, i know it's about communication. communication with your viewers. it's something you have to deal with whether you are a commercial graphic designer, working on a commisioned piece or a fine artist, working on a gallery show. it goes hand in hand with the visual art field. and a lot of other art fields. and fields outside of art.

 

you should make art for the sake of making art. keeping the creative juices going. keeping from not being bored.

 

you shouldn't think of this occupation as a "job."

 

timmy

tim@mk12.com

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Guest igorschmigor

Sao_Bento: I understand what you are saying but not why you're saying it. After all, we were actually talking about truly original stuff, not the best design solutions. You can make solid design for centuries and not come up with anything really new. The list i gave was an example of truly original stuff and you come telling me i should have named Rezn8 and UVPhactory instead to get my point through. People would have laughed at me if i had named these to prove that there are some really original animations out there.

What i also don't understand is that you blame belief for doing what has already been done once before and tap on Rezn8's sholder for doing what has been done a thousand times before.

I don't understand why you think MK12s stuff is getting pretty old, it's not like they don't come up with new ideas anymore.

I don't understand why you think that every client of Psyop walks out with the same style.

I don't understand what's so supercustom-fitted about UVPhactories work for ESPN and so "they-don't-give-a-damn-about-their-design-needs" in psyops work for ESPN.

You're right about Nakd, abstract 2D isn't the solution for everything, that's why he is only being approached by the clients who think that it might be the best solution for THEIR thing. Which means that an important design decision has already been made by chosing him. Producers also make an important decision by chosing Oliver Stone or Quentin Tarantino for their movies, does that mean that these are not directors? Sure, you wouldn't ask these guys to create a WaltDisney style cartoon, but so what? Jack Nicholson is only suited for certain roles, you wouldn't chose him for an action movie or the sexy lover, does that mean he's not an actor, or that all the acting has already been done just by chosing him?

 

edit: oh shit, timmy, you wrote your post the same time as i did, so i didn't reply to the things you said, or taken them into account. Cool, now that we have someone from MK12 here, could you please join the type-birth thread and tell us all the secrets? :lol:

 

p.s.: i still don't understand the thing about Montgomery Cobb vs. Montgomery Co

 

what is a sweat shop?

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Guest firemind

sweatshop, a place where mindless drones churn out crap as fast as possible for cheap wages.

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Guest renascent

im happy timmy stepped up there for a sec, ive been lurking on the sideline ;)

 

stop the debate and start to create ;)

 

its really freakin easy to analize this and that, they are such and such and they are this that and the other...

 

its a shallow conversation that is enjoyable to read while zipping my coffee and watching my render hours ticking away...

 

and think about why you mention peeps like nando, mk12, lobo, etc.. etc... somewhere allong the line they did something remarkable that stands out from the gray mass and are recognized for it by many. these people that approach cases different then your ordinary Wash and Go commercial, be happy such people exist in our industry :)

 

carry on, i still have 20 render hours remaining ;)

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Guest timmy

You're right about Nakd, abstract 2D isn't the solution for everything, that's why he is only being approached by the clients who think that it might be the best solution for THEIR thing. Which means that an important design decision has already been made by chosing him.

 

it's not the easiest of transitions between the print world and the broadcast world. there are a ton of technical aspects to deal with, as well as that new thought process of "moving things."

 

have a look at nando and linn's portfolio again. the 2D label really can't be used on them. when i look at their portfolio, i can see stellar growth and the ability of nando an linn to adapt very easily to whatever aesthetic they are looking for... i think that is what their clients are also realizing.

 

Producers also make an important decision by chosing Oliver Stone or Quentin Tarantino for their movies, does that mean that these are not directors? Sure, you wouldn't ask these guys to create a WaltDisney style cartoon, but so what?

 

tarantino and stone do not get tapped by producers. it's the other way around.

 

Cool, now that we have someone from MK12 here, could you please join the type-birth thread and tell us all the secrets? :lol:

 

sure! here ya go: in your project window, double click your main comp, go to said main comps timeline and pre-comp both the "purple solid 2" layer and the oh, i'm not going to do this, no.

 

timmy

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Guest igorschmigor

shallow conversation? Man, i thought we were changing the world here. Ok, that's it, i'm back off to Ehowa where it makes a difference when i say "yes, i haven't had sex for the last 12 hours and it was great". Only 20 more rendering hours? You're going to miss the main part, this is only the introduction. And congratulations on your 5th post.

 

Alright, so Tarantino and Stone don't get tapped, but it was only an example you know, anyway if a producer did tap them with a great script and they'd accept, they'd still be the actual creatives in the film-making process.

I havn't yet had a closer look at Nakd's portfolio, i'm sorry if Sao as well as i put a tag on them too soon but i really wouldn't even have minded if they did deserve that tag, as long as they keep doing good stuff.

 

Ah, "purple solid 2" layer. nuff said, that was the missing piece in the puzzle, now i can figure out the rest :wink:

 

Excuse me if i come up with a lot of unqualified talk, i'm not even in this business, nor am i planning to step into it, i just like the stuff i saw and i like to argue.

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Guest govinda

I think the name Linn that Tim is mentioning is Nando Costa's wife. She does a lot of the Nakd illustrations. I heard that from someone named Caskey. And it's back to the bleachers for me.

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Guest renascent

5 posts vs. 141 posts, i bow down to you :P

 

quality vs quantity ;)

 

anyways a few more render hours to go.

 

i do love the reel section on this board, very nice collection.

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Guest timmy
I think the name Linn that Tim is mentioning is Nando Costa's wife. She does a lot of the Nakd illustrations. I heard that from someone named Caskey. And it's back to the bleachers for me.

 

hey govinda... how do you know caskey?

 

-t

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