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Guest igorschmigor

Iran is next

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Guest parallax
nobody should excuse himself with tits for having a political opinion...

 

those who aren't able shouldn't write, there are enough tits elsewhere...

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No excuses here.

 

I'm just rethinking my priorities.

 

@ Govinda:

 

I see your point. They indeed value life less, but carpet bombing their 'brothers' isn't going to help much, we're on a sliding scale here, and it's gradually spiralling downwards with every unilateral reaction.

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Guest igorschmigor
"Daddy, Mommy... Look... I can make the Devil-Sign!!"

top.inauguration1.ap.jpg

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I love that.

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Guest igorschmigor
Asymmetric warfare = different views on the value of human life. Those who value life less, who are therefore willing to lose more of it, are the world's most stubborn enemies, the kinds of enemies we've run into more, who sit right on the world's most vital resources and the world's most vital religious sites in a time when nuclear weapons are getting just that much easier to find.

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Are you saying it's okay to attack them because they are lucky enough to sit on oil? Look at all the valuable resources that we are sitting on. All the fertile land. Our folks don't have to starve of hunger. And we can still afford to drive. In fact it's still so affordable that many people even drive to the next store a hundred meters away instead of walking.

 

If oil is such a needed resource then why don't we start to waste less of it. Even if we took all the oil from the middle-east it would only make it cheaper, would be used twice as much and used up in half the time. And then what???

 

Drinking water will be the next resource the world will be running out of (I've heard experts estimate that it will only last another 20 years). And we'll be the ones sitting on most of that.

 

edit:

P.S.: those who value life less... who are you thinking of? Those that think 220,000 dead people in Asia won't give many people sleepless nights? Those, whose president has another 3 days of holiday after such a desaster?

Edited by igorschmigor

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Guest govinda

There was the word 'warfare' at the end of that phrase. In war, not in times of national disaster. But in fact the stuff you said up above re water was right on. You should check out the new book by Jared Diamond that examines civilizations' occasional self-destructive behaviors. (Reviewed in the New Yorker.) In Rwanda when the Tutsis went after the Hutus there was actually an environmental disaster going on. Resources became ridiculously scarce as population exploded. Farmers were down to postage stamp-sized plots. The pot was boiling over due to something other than long-standing ethnic hatred, though in the end it was ethnic hatred that was blamed. That surely played a part, but it wasn't as much a stress as two communities trying to subside from tiny rivulets of fresh water. He also looks at the failures of the Viking colony on Greenland, who refused to eat fish because it made them too much like the Inuit 'skraelings.' Then there were the Easter Islanders, whose tree-harvesting was done in exactly the wrong place and destroyed their ecosystem and eventually their culture. The obvious parallel is with Western cultures (esp. California) and their cars, favoring a manly image and momentary convenience in the face of overwhelming evidence that it's changing the climate.

 

You could also write a book about empires and the bizarre ways they self-destruct. The Fourth Crusade led to the sack of Christian city of Constantinople and the eventual downfall of the Byzantine Empire. It's a story too bizarre to be true, but there it was. We in the US are doing our best to over-reach in the classic manner of tragedy, a la Napoleon in Russia. Good old-fashioned hubris, tastes like pork rinds. In five years Iraq will be no better than when we swept in and looked around for welcome mats, and we'll be spent and alone, a civilization that stupidly gambled its entire kitty of cash and goodwill on one throw of the dice, staked its entire post-WWII lottery winnings, couldn't handle the crown on its head after the collapse of the USSR. In Iraq a Gucci-suited dicatator will be back in charge, and though we'll play him up to look like a grand founder of democracy, he'll have varying degrees of brutality in his portfolio, which certain factions on the right will wish us to overlook because, hey, you gotta be tough in a country of such heathens. And so will the right wrap over on its story yet again, revising their current song that war critics are overlooking the brutality of Saddam, and that Saddam's oppression, after all, was the real reason we went in (reason number 65 for anyone counting) to defending an oppressive leader because, you know, a little oppression ain't a bad thing when everyone's wearing dirty rags on their heads, setting IEDs and going u-lu-lu-lu-lu all the time. And inside Iraq, the seeds of disruption for the entire region will be germinating in ways that Saddam was effective in holding down (I'm not defending him, just describing him). A mujahideen generation that came of age fighting the Russians in Afghanistan will be nothing to the generation who bonded together fighting Chad from Arkansas in Fallujah. They'll have their own songs, their own heroes, their own martyrs, a common set of enemies, and support networks that will put their mujahideen forebears to shame. It's a good thing we're at least a little more on the ball now, because this is gonna get interesting.

 

Are there enough kittens in the world for our soldiers to pet? We need to start petting them, now, all over Iraq, in front of every camera. Call the shelters and get those kittens off to Baghdad, get all available film crews, I mean now.

 

So that's my prediction, not a big stretch. The shorter version: a hornet's nest, a meat-head kid with a baseball bat and a need to prove himself. Whoosh, everyone indoors for a few years.

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Guest igorschmigor

roflcopter.gif

 

oops, posted too late. The roflcopter was for MBX`s Jibjab post.

Edited by igorschmigor

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Guest headbox

A word armchair politicians never use is "sacrifice" because Americans forget history too quickly. Freedom comes at a cost. You don't get rid of Evil in the world by carrying signs around and writing letters. You have the freedom to whine about Bush because of our guns, tanks and bombs. But what's amazing is the misguided priorities of the modern hippie. They've lost sight of the true problems in America thanks to fools like Dan Rather and Michael Moore. They just want to sell you something.

 

In the USA:

45,000 people die a year in car accidents

20,000 die from the flu

15,000 from murders (50% or more from people they know well)

1,000+ from murders just in Los Angeles

 

In Afghanistan:

150+ US soldiers

 

In Iraq:

1,000 US soldiers (the military includes accidents which raises the number to 1,400+)

15,000 Civilians including killed by Iraqi insurgents/terrorists

 

Previous wars:

Viet Nam- 49,000

Korea- 55,000

World War 2- 295,000

World War 1- 117,000

 

So really- the "War" in Iraq is nothing when you look at the big picture. Why don't people rant and rave about the real problems in the world? What about all the air pollution and trash Californians make? Why don't the real causes of death get on TV? Because it doesn't sell you crap. Sensationalist media wants you to fear terror, wants you to hate Bush, wants you to get emotional so you tune in and see their commercials. They want you to whine about a "war" that really isn't killing many people, a "war" that is giving people a chance for democracy, and a "war" that got rid of a dictator that used chemical weapons on his own people.

 

But like I said earlier- get your lazy ass and go to the middle east and see for yourself if it's so important to you. Watch the documentary about the hippies who went to Iraq to be human shields changed their minds when they saw every school and hospital was being used to store weapons and ammo, and thousands of people were crammed into prisons based on rumor that they might not like Saddam.

 

Oh, you won't EVER hear stories on the news about US soldiers helping people every minute of every day, because that doesn't sell you cars, clothes, and movies. Luckily 3,000,000 more Americans have a clue than those who voted for Kerry.

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Guest igorschmigor
Sensationalist media wants you to fear terror, wants you to hate Bush, wants you to get emotional so you tune in and see their commercials.

[...]

Oh, you won't EVER hear stories on the news about US soldiers helping people every minute of every day, because that doesn't sell you cars, clothes, and movies.  Luckily 3,000,000 more Americans have a clue than those who voted for Kerry.

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Now that's a twisted point of view. Don't you see how the fear for terror cast by the media is making people love Bush?

 

We do get to hear stories about soldiers helping iraqis, but it doesn't compensate the torturing, and after all the iraqis still wanted the US troops to move out. Now i wonder why, when the soldiers were so good to them. But i already know that you'll just put them off as some ungrateful bastards.

 

Keep calling us hippies, it makes me feel good, i love hippies.

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Guest govinda

For fuck's sake, the needle's caught in the groove. This is getting funny. Is there really a person behind this disjointed ranting, or is it some kind of winger argue-bot caught on a 'name call: hippy' algorithm? :D:D:D

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Guest Sao_Bento

>>I thought MK Ultra was cancelled.<<

 

Actually, the fruits of MK Ultra are in full effect as evidenced by Abu Graib. Although the government's side is that Abu Graib was the act of a few "bad apples", those bad apples *coincidentally* happened to use the exact methods described in the CIA's own manuals on interrogation.

 

The MK Ultra program began in the late 1950s, after the intelligence community recognized the poor quality of information that resulted from the "traditional" physical torture techniques. Those who could take the pain would die without telling you what you wanted to know, while those who could not take it said anything to make it stop.

 

In a quest for something that worked, they began Mk Ultra which encompassed a HUGE amount of smaller programs designed to test specific techniques, of course the more well known one was giving unsuspecting people LSD, hoping it could be used as a kind of truth serum. Ultimately, Frank Ohlson, a bio weapons reseacher ended up jumping out a window and killing himself after being given LSD without his knowledge. Some of the other work being done as part of the program looked into medival devices such as "the crane", designed to put someone in extremely uncomfortable positions for long periods of time.

 

The CIA's adaptation of these techniques excluded the actual device and evolved into what are called "stress positions" similar to the photo of the guy standing on the box with the wires attached to his gentials, under the impression that if he lost his balance, he would be electrocuted. Also in the repetoir is sensory deprevation (hence all the blindfolds), and sexual humiliation (especially effective against cultures with strong taboos in this area). The implementation of all these techniques is designed to make the prisoner feel that he is in control of the situation - that he is doing it to himself, and he can make it stop any time he wants by giving the captors the information they want.

 

Quite a coincidence that this hick came up with all that on his own, isn't it?

 

Wikipedia has a general overview that hints at some of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKULTRA

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Guest parallax

Quite a coincidence that this hick came up with all that on his own, isn't it?

 

 

What are you talking about. The soldier of the 21st century is a technosavvy scholar with a PHD in Quantum Mechanics, and a love for fingerpainting.

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Guest pixelthief
In Iraq:

1,000 US soldiers (the military includes accidents which raises the number to 1,400+)

15,000 Civilians including killed by Iraqi insurgents/terrorists

 

You pulled these figures outta your ass. Notice no mention of American military wounded, which is well over 10,000. But I guess having all of your appendages blown off in a roadside bomb attack because your Humvee has no armor isn't worth a mention.

 

And your estimate of Iraqi civlilians dead is preposterous. No one knows for sure how many innocent civilians have died, but with some estimates topping out at 100,000, your figure is bullshit.

 

I won't even get into the fact that we're using depleted uranium ammunition in our tanks over there. Have a look at Iraqi birth defect stats following Gulf War I. Then take into account that we fired 100x more rounds in the first month we were in Iraq this go around.

 

This war is "nothing" when you look at it? Try telling that to 1400 mothers, asshole.

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Guest fredcamino

we are all going to die. if not by old age, then by disease, or violence, or starvation, or thirst, or asteroid, or car accident, or earthquake, or war, or heart attack, or brown recluse bite, or global warming, or genocide, or drowning, or lightning strike, or volcano, or nuclear holocaust, or dog attack, or food poisoning, or supernova, or boredom. sometimes someone will have to tell our grief stricken mothers, sometimes someone will have to tell us that our mothers have died, sometimes, there will be no one around to tell anyone anything. regardless, our deaths will be meaningless and we will soon be forgotten. the dream of utopia is as reasonable and logical as the dream of an afterlife. absurd. we are all going to die.

 

on the plus side, war will end, assuming the supernova is real. :H

Edited by fredcamino

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Guest govinda
What are you talking about. The soldier of the 21st century is a technosavvy scholar with a PHD in Quantum Mechanics, and a love for fingerpainting.

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Gawd you crack me up sometimes!

 

I remember being on a job in April of 2003 and someone said, you know, I have to agree, we should support the soldiers. My reply was that throughout history, soldiers have been forces of chaos loose on the world, and that it's only discipline and careful handling that keeps them from running apeshit wild even now. Sacking here, pillaging there, mass-murdering across the street, percolating to the top the worst of group dynamics. And you know, if it was discovered that our soldiers were nothing but rape and torture squads, there'd still be some fat woman in Knoxville holding up her little flag, tears in her eyes, yellow ribbons on her car antenna, shouting 'Support the troops!'

 

Well, I was half-right.

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Guest fredcamino

so why do we care if they die or lose limbs.

 

whoa, i really like your proverb in your signature govinda.

Edited by fredcamino

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Guest govinda
so why do we care if they die or lose limbs.

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Heh, I left off the 'but I really do care about the soldiers' caveat. I'm a big hater of group dynamics and the way they twist human behavior. But no rational person thinks that armies aren't necessary and that they do good things 90% of the time. It's those 10% of the times that get me, things like the burning of the Alexandia library, the shelling of the Parthenon by Napoleon, the My Lai massacre, the rape of Nanking, etc. Call me a perfectionist, hoping that my tax green doesn't pay for such things.

 

Actually my comment was more about the Knoxville straw-woman I created and the way people root for the home team no matter how they behave. Feh, I hate my imaginary creation, with her imaginary striped Sam's Club shirt, chubby white thighs and Supercut hair. She can bite me with her imaginary teeth.

 

By the way, any army that goes in not expecting to find schools and mosques used as armories is full of naifs. These things have been done for a thousand years. We might as well be surprised that dripping paint-vectorized deer shit lavender in the woods. I thought The Battle of Algiers was required viewing for the military these days.

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Guest headbox
You pulled these figures outta your ass.  Notice no mention of American military wounded, which is well over 10,000.  But I guess having all of your appendages blown off in a roadside bomb attack because your Humvee has no armor isn't worth a mention.

 

pulled out my ass? just fucking read man. And the whining about unarmored hummers is just another example of hippie whining and cowardly national guard troops shocked that they actually were called to serve and want an excuse to get out. The hummer is just the next generation jeep. You think there was a bunch of whining about the jeep in world war two? Hell no- many people, including generals, said the jeep was significant in winning the war. If you knew military units, you'd know that not one of the 12 active duty infantry divisions is complaining about the hummer. You might also know that the Army introduced the new "striker" vehicle speciifically for this war, and is designed for urban/desert and is fully armored... but Dan Rather doesn't talk about that.

 

And your estimate of Iraqi civlilians dead is preposterous.  No one knows for sure how many innocent civilians have died, but with some estimates topping out at 100,000, your figure is bullshit.

 

THAT number is bullshit. That number includes shit like people dying of diseases because the local hospital was turned into an Iraqi weapons depot and mass graves of people found killed by Saddam's regime. Get a clue.

 

I won't even get into the fact that we're using depleted uranium ammunition in our tanks over there.  Have a look at Iraqi birth defect stats following Gulf War I.  Then take into account that we fired 100x more rounds in the first month we were in Iraq this go around.

 

Oh great, now you're a tank expert. Did you know tanks carry a variety of munitions? Of course not. Uranium shells are RARELY used because only the newest russian tanks withstand them. 99%+ opf rounds fired are regular explosive HE shells.

 

This war is "nothing" when you look at it?  Try telling that to 1400 mothers, asshole.

 

Freedom isn't free, coward. 1,400 is a small price to pay for millions freed. Terrorists that would like to attack the US civilians are instead going to Iraq to fight our soldiers... and they are getting killed. Notice that there hasn't been ONE single attack on the US since we went to war?! They would if they could. Don't forget the massive amount of people causing trouble for the US in Iraq aren't even Iraqi- they are the brainwashed jihad motherfuckers from all around the world. It doesn't help that Michael Moore advertises his anti-bush movie on arab news sites. Fucking traitor.

 

Go drive your polluting car over to starbucks and have a hippie drink and pretend you know how the world works because you watch CNN. And then don't do anything about it except maybe join Sierra club and mail a few bucks to some charity. Yeah, you've got it all figured out because the TV told you so.

Edited by headbox

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Guest milksac
1,400 is a small price to pay...

 

Who the fuck are you to say it's a small price to pay ?

 

It's easy for you to say because you didn't pay a god dam thing.

 

What are your qualifications in placing a value on the loss of life?

 

What the fuck do you know about the pain a parent suffers when they lose a child?

 

You haven't experienced this pain but somehow you feel comfortable saying "it's a small price to pay"?

 

If I could I would wish that you could experience what it feels like to lose a child. But I won't. I can't. I wouldn't wish that pain on anyone, even a low life like you.

 

I will say this though...GO FUCK YOURSELF.

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Guest fredcamino

see... war is inevitable, but utterly pointless. even in the smallest collection of humans, war will break out. nothing will be solved. headbox won't change his opinions. the rest of mograph won't change theirs. i'm certainly not changing mine. but we will continue to fight this bloody battle. until the supernova that is.

 

though i gotta admit, watching a war from the sidelines does have its pleasures, and i can't wait to see headbox's retaliation to milksac's attack.

Edited by fredcamino

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Guest MBX

dear headbox...

i really wonder where you get your infos from.

 

to tell you one little thing (sorry if my english writing isn't perfect). there is actually more terrorism since the iraq-war over the globe, more fear & insecurity, even a big tsunami. ok that doesn't count.

and do you really believe, usa with it's fbi, cia, nwa, nra, kkk and how all these special forces & intelligence groups are called and with it's super military arsenal & power couldn't protect itself from some little gangsta-terrorists that found their way perfectly into the wtc with big boeing's after only some little cessna training?

go read/ see back in history and you'll see what hitler did back some 60 years ago before he invaded poland... he used the reichstag-"terrorist-fire" (which he actually caused himself) as an opportunity to scale down society's freedom & "democracy" like bush does now with patriot act 1-2/ constitution and also adolf used that reichstag's-fire as excuse to invade poland. the same happened with 9-11/ iraq. altough saddam had no connection to it. but he has some lovely oil. and mr. hussein wasn't even a threat to it's neighbour-countries, so how could he even be a threat oversea's? i guess the wmd's aren't found yet, are they? not even osama, but he's always welcome to spread a little fear so bushy-boy can do some action. oh yeah anyway, now i also know what mrs. rice meant with "historical opportunity for america" after the 9-11.

and then you ask yourself in what kind of freedom/ democracy do the iraqi people live in now? 100'000 iraqi's died in that war so far in a short amount of time that not even saddam was able to accomplish. food/ water supply & living-standard is less than under saddam. and after-effects mographers/ freelancers in iraq are out of job. oh yeah and after abu-ghraib we also know that not only saddam tortures. but the cia/ us-military blames one or two single heads, nice how they could get away with it.

 

hmm, to come back to adolf. it's a fact that g.w.b's grandfather made business with hitler. it's a fact that g.w.b's father did business with saddam, etc. and it's fact that g.w.b & his family did business with osama/ bin ladens.

so then investigations & assumptions like a little beyond what mainstream media & goverment teaches you aren't always immediatly conspiracy-nut-freak ideas... but like i said, history repeats itself and sheeps are being fooled over & over. just play with their emotions a little... like using the flag, crucifix & 9-11 in almost every phrase and the sheeps feel safe again in goverment's hands.

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Guest govinda

Ooh, yeah Fred, this should be fun.

 

Once you're convinced like Headinass that there's a 'liberal media bias' the game's up. The paranoia has taken hold. You're lost to humanity. The epidemic of delusion sweeps you along with all the other cranks on AM Talk Radio, despite any evidence to the contrary.

 

101st Fighting Keyboarders, saddle up! Latrine-cleaners included, Heddie Lamarr!

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Guest fredcamino

why does it seem to me that any claim from either side about a media bias is utter bullshit. there's way too much media in the country for there to be a bias. sure, if you take a small sampling of a specific media, you may find a bias (AM radio, hunting magazines). but i imagine if you look at the media in the united states as a whole, you'll find that it's split right down the middle pretty evenly. for me personally, because of my location, age, interests, etc, nearly every bit of media i come in contact with is biased to the left. i don't watch fox news. i just don't. i don't listen to AM radio. i just don't. i read the LA Weekly. i just do. i listen to NPR. i just do. i hate adbusters. boy do i ever.

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