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Guest igorschmigor

Iran is next

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Guest headbox
oh and the reason why the US hasn't been attacked yet is that the ideology of islam fundamentalist is all about patience and long term wars

 

they think in decades not years

 

Who sold you THAT bullshit? That's the most insane statement I've read all week. Everyone knows if they had the means to kill Americans, they would. How many tapes have we seen of Osama saying all muslims should kill Americans? Did he say "just kill a couple here and there over the next 1,000 years" -um no.

 

anyway, iran won't get attacked, they have a real army and real big guns, they are not some punks with an ak-47 and a couple of grenades

18887[/snapback]

 

And here is where you reveal your true ignorance. Are you aware that Iran and Iraq fought for 8 years and the border never shifted more than 80 miles? And even though they were supplied by USA, USSR, and China, neither side ever accomplished jack. They would fall just as fast as Iraq did. I suppose you're also unaware that Iraq's republican guard and other mechanized units still fought with tanks and armored vehicles during the invasion- not just punks with rifles.

 

Really man, all you have to do is pull your head out of your ass and read a little and you can begin to understand what's going on. Instead you come up with shit a little birdy told you, and spit it out like it's a fact.

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Guest parallax

Get a clue man, stop reading Tom Clancy books. I don't know what books you've been reading, or what your drill sergeant told you when you picked up 1 too many bar of soap in the shower, but you seriously need to check your facts, as the whole world of experts seems to disagree with your perceptions of military strategy, and i'm not talking about swiftboat veterans either.

 

As far as 'regime changing' is concerned, tell that to the dozens upon dozens of poeple whose very own dictators were either sponsored, backed, or even put in power by the US government.

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Guest igorschmigor

Smart mine fields, that's a nice invention. Although during the war children might still step onto them. However, i do realize that the US military try to keep wars as humane as possible. How humane it really is noone can tell, because of media censorship. I believe that the reality is a little more gory than the clean tactical operations that they show us on TV. I once saw a report about US troops killed by friendly fire. Happened to many of them. They had original footage. Nothing nice i tell you, but one hardly ever gets to see this aspect of the war.

 

Saddam is gone, that's good, no doubt. And if they really did manage to establish a well-working democracy i'd be the last one to complain about the war. But the reality is that many iraqis now want a muslim state. I think they might not be ready for true democracy, freedom and equal rights yet.

 

The dead are not the only victims in a war. There also a lot more wounded people, normal life ceases to exhist, water supply, power supply are down in many areas, even when people survive it they'll be traumatized by the bombings. Many people loose their houses. People can't go to their regular work, food gets short, poverty increases.

 

Take all that into consideration. Can you imagine a life like that? Iraqis had to pay a big prize and it better be worth it in the end. They never asked for this war.

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Guest igorschmigor

Sorry for digging this old thread out again. But i just remembered Bush's love for Ozzy Osbourne and thought "damn, maybe he does mean the devil sign".

 

http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1758.cfm

Ozzy_SpeakDevil.jpg

"'The thing about Ozzy is, he's made a lot of big hit recordings: Party With the Animals, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, Face in Hell, Black Skies and Bloodbath in Paradise, Ozzy, Mom loves your stuff." (Bush May 4, 2002)

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Guest imago

It's very clear that the left will never agree with the right, and vice versa, simply because of political power. Even if they agree on an action, one side will still say they could have done it slightly better. Of course it's always the side without majority power that has the luxury of saying they can do better without ever having to prove it.

 

The problem with the current left is they don't understand sacrifice. There isn't a single democracy in the world that didn't go through a great struggle to get there unless another democracy helped them out. In the big picture, Millions of Iraqis are far better off than they were years ago. Exiles are returning home, people are already voting, and they can speak their mind for the first time in history.

 

Think of those who died in the American Revolution for freedom. Think of those who died in the Civil War to abolish Slavery. Think of those who died to defeat hitler. History remembers the victors because they did what was right. In every case, there was a massive public opposition that later proved to be wrong. Fighting the Red Coats wasn't popular. Fighting the South wasn't popular. Fighting the Germans and the Japanese wasn't popular. Had the anti-war demonstrators of those eras been the majority, the world would be far worse.

 

And 50 years from now, Bush will be remembered as the US President that liberated Iraq from a dictator and helped create a democratic nation that changed the middle east. The body counts and news footage won't matter. And all of the anti-war protesters will go down in history like the other generations- either known as those who were wrong, or not even mentioned at all.

 

The one time the US did listen to the protesters was Viet Nam. It made the war unwinnable because the military couldn't fight the way it could/should have. Knowing that the US public was vocally anti-war gave the North Vietnamese leaders political power they otherwise wouldn't have had. They were once at the peace table and withdrew knowing that the hippies would lose the war for the US, no matter how many battles were won. And for those that don't know- the US never lost a major battle once during the entire Viet Nam war.

 

This past election showed that 3 more millions understood this than the ones who don't.

Edited by imago

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Guest igorschmigor

Sorry, i didn't read it all. Was there any passage about devil signs and Bushs love for "Bloodbath in Paradise"?

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Guest Sao_Bento

I predict Imago and Govinda are going to have a LOT to talk about.

Imago = the anti-Govinda? I guess headbox is out of a job.

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Guest pixelthief

The problem with the current left is they don't understand sacrifice. 

 

If memory serves, it was Republicans who fought tooth and nail for tax cuts for the rich. If you understood sacrifice at all your mind would be unable to reconcile the fact that cutting taxes for the upper class while waging an war that we have no way to pay for is about as far from fucking sacrifice as you can conceivably get. Nevermind the fact that our nation bears the lion's share of the fiscal burden because we alienated all of our allies. Nevermind that, while the average Iraqi might be marginally better off in some respects, Americans are less safe as the result of this war. And never mind that the thing you wingnutters understand best about sacrifice is how to avoid it.

 

Think of those who died in the American Revolution for freedom.  Think of those who died in the Civil War to abolish Slavery.  Think of those who died to defeat hitler.  History remembers the victors because they did what was right.  In every case, there was a massive public opposition that later proved to be wrong.  Fighting the Red Coats wasn't popular.  Fighting the South wasn't popular.  Fighting the Germans and the Japanese wasn't popular.  Had the anti-war demonstrators of those eras been the majority, the world would be far worse.

 

I see it a different way. Every single war/revolution/sruggle you just mentioned was one that Americans actually had a stake in. Slavery, tyranny, the holocaust--those were issues that touched the daily lives of Americans. It's really an obnoxious comparison for you to make. Please explain to me how Saddam Hussein was a threat to me and my livelihood? How exactly was he a going to affect my life? I ask, not because I believe that selfishness or isolationism should be the sole basis of our foreign policy, but to prove that your examples above are inappropriate for your argument and because that, indeed, was how the war was sold to American citizens. Immediate threat. Saddam was in cahoots with Al-Queada. Part of the war on terror. Bullshit.

 

And 50 years from now, Bush will be remembered as the US President that liberated Iraq from a dictator and helped create a democratic nation that changed the middle east.  The body counts and news footage won't matter.  And all of the anti-war protesters will go down in history like the other generations- either known as those who were wrong, or not even mentioned at all.

 

History will be the judge, not you. But let me just counter your regurgitation of neocon talking points with some speculation of my own: Bush will be remembered as the first president to enter office with a criminal record. He will be remembered as the man who lost the popular vote, legally should have lost the electoral vote, and had to be selected and installed by a partisan vote in the Supreme court. He will be remembered as the man who said there would be weapons of mass destruction. The one who said they would greet us as liberators. He will be remembered as the man who had a CIA agent working to infiltrate nuclear arms dealers outed because her husband told the truth. He will be remembered as the guy who fought relentlessly the very idea of forming a 9/11 commision to investigate the attacks. He will be remembered as the one who won re-election under extremely suspicious circumstances. He will be remembered as the only US president whose approval ratings sank to below 50% just 7 days after taking the oath of office. He will be remembered as the guy who gutted decades of environmental protection legislation. He will be remembered as the guy who shamelessly exploited religion for political gain, and on more than one occasion claimed that god spoke through him. He will be remembered as the president who lost all three debates and won re-election. He will be remembered as the guy who advanced the corporate stranglehold over America more than any three before him. I really could go on and on...

 

The one time the US did listen to the protesters was Viet Nam.  It made the war unwinnable because the military couldn't fight the way it could/should have.  Knowing that the US public was vocally anti-war gave the North Vietnamese leaders political power they otherwise wouldn't have had.  They were once at the peace table and withdrew knowing that the hippies would lose the war for the US, no matter how many battles were won.  And for those that don't know- the US never lost a major battle once during the entire Viet Nam war.

 

We never lost a major battle in Iraq, either. But we're losing right now to insurgents who will fight us for the next 100 years if they have to.

 

You're telling me that the protesters are why we lost vietnam? I can't even take this seriously.

 

This past election showed that 3 more millions understood this than the ones who don't.

 

This past election re-emphasized that we need drastic electoral reform in America. Nothing more.

 

Well, it's also sort of a statement on the quality of education down south, but that's another thread.

 

Question: if GOP cheerleaders like yourself and Headbox are so behind this war, why aren't you making sacrifices and fighting in it yourselves? I mean, if it's going to accomplish all these great things and you believe in it so, why not make the ultimate sacrifice?

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Guest pixelthief
Sorry, i didn't read it all. Was there any passage about devil signs and Bushs love for "Bloodbath in Paradise"?

19466[/snapback]

 

I think he's a fan of Alice Cooper as well.

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Guest govinda

Geez, who needs my bush-league commentary? Pixelthief is further left of me, but that was some exposition! There's not much left to say after his recititave regarding war of choice vs. war of necessity and his sleeper-hold on the real meaning of 'sacrifice.' Meteor Blades himself couldn't have done as well. A liberal from Alabama taking it out on a 'winger from California, the world is a strange and beautiful place. Where's Barack Obama? 'We got 101st Fighting Keyboarders in the BLUE states, and we got peace protesters in the RED states!'

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Guest pixelthief
Geez, who needs my bush-league commentary? Pixelthief is further left of me, but that was some exposition! There's not much left to say after his recititave regarding war of choice vs. war of necessity and his sleeper-hold on the real meaning of 'sacrifice.' Meteor Blades himself couldn't have done as well. A liberal from Alabama taking it out on a 'winger from California, the world is a strange and beautiful place. Where's Barack Obama? 'We got 101st Fighting Keyboarders in the BLUE states, and we got peace protesters in the RED states!'

19479[/snapback]

 

LOL.

 

Didn't realize I was left of ya, gov... am actually a fiscal conservative, pro gun, and pro military force when necessary. Problem is, it hasn't been necessary since WWII (the exception being peacekeeping missions and even Afghanistan) but our leaders wanna flex that muscle anyway when it suits them.

 

If they understood sacrifice they wouldn't be giving tax cuts to people for buying SUVs and encouraging a culture of overconsumption that is directly responsible for the power that these middle eastern nations hold over us. We went to Iraq largely because of oil. Democracy in Iraq was just an excuse to morph the wmd justification into, a bonus, a pipe dream. As much as I would love for it to succeed and be proved wrong, I just don't see it happening. Most Iraqis aren't expected to vote due to fear of violence, and in fact, they have had to keep the names of the candidates secret. Not democracy.

 

Democracy, like communism has largely been a failure. Does anyone think we really have a democracy here in the US? We have a representative democracy, and a failed one at that. Unless anyone can tell me that the people elected to represent them actually vote in a way that is consistent with their beliefs and their best interests? Rare. People don't even expect it any more. Funny how Kerry got grilled for voting this way or that, but as a Senator his job is to vote in his constituents' interests, in a way consistent with their beliefs. Look at his constituency and tell me he wasn't doing just that. People don't even remember what legislators' jobs are anymore. Even our president, who squeaked by with a 3% margin and claims a mandate, doesn't pretend to understand democracy. They've been hard at work for four years, tearing down the transparency and openness that is the heartbeat of a democracy and shrouding it all in secrecy. Again, the thing they understand best about democracy is how to subvert it.

 

And I'm not talking exclusively about republicans. Yeah, their misdeeds make those of the democrats look like my grade school rap sheet. But dems are part of the club as well.

 

Democracy in the US has failed for many reasons... money, power, corruption, corporate influence, etc... but I have great hope. The other 48% of us aren't going to let up, and one day one of Bush's scandals is going to catch up with him. Then perhaps we can seize the moment and talk about how to reform our system in a way that represents us all, acts in our best interests and not those of corporations, and above all tells us the truth. Hey, wouldn't that be something.

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Guest igorschmigor

Wow, long post.

 

I did read imago's thread now and i have to say that i highly agree with him: it will take at least 50 years for us to forget all the bullshit that Bush did. And Republicans REALLY ARE very good at sacrificing. Like sacrificing civil rights for paranoia, sacrificing social security for tax cuts for the rich, sacrificing the environment for ... er.. for what actually? Whatever, sacrifice is so cool. Applause!!!

 

Oh yes, btw.:

Operation Iraq Liberation = O.I.L.

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Guest MBX

i believe we go through a similiar phase as most civilisations in this universe. it's a forming, building, evolving, growing and grinding. it's part of our evolution and we're still on a primitive level compared to where we can be if we don't destroy ourselves or if no stones from heaven fall on us.

only 2005 years passed since babyjesus was nailed, only about 100 years since most of our most important technological inventions were made. imagine where we'll be in 100 - 1000 - 1'000'000 years... we will have no genitals and eat light. or maybe just a boring perfect sphere floating in the air.

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Guest pixelthief

Great read. I must say I agree about kos having some growing up to do, although I do agree with him more often than not. The recent smear attacks on he and Jerome seem to confirm that they've got more than a few powerful people feeling extremely threatened.

 

Have the folks over at democratic underground been following this thread? Posted today:

Who's Paying for all this Freedom?

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Guest headbox

Anytime you identify yourself with a political party, you might as well be deaf and blind too. Most of you have a cult mentality and to admit you're wrong, or even misguided, would be worse than death. No single party, group, belief, etc. has the answers but not many people can admit that. If a person can accept that the world is a gray place, and not left or right, then progress can be made. But like people who believe in god, they've invested too much into their beliefs to see life in any other way.

 

So go back to your Bush bashing and anti-war jibberish while you support a woman's right to "choose" to kill an unborn child with a heartbeat, face, hands, fingers, because you know what's best for every man, woman, and child on earth- because you read it in a blog. How a person can be anti-war on the way to the abortion clinic blows my mind, but whatever. That's what "liberal" is I guess.

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Guest headbox

Presidents in time of conflict: starting with most recent

 

==================

 

GW Bush - Republican: Got rid of Saddam, freed Iraq, made some shady business deals, not a great speaker, and likes to make the satan symbol.

 

Clinton - Democrat: President during Somolian failure, Haitian failure, Trouble in Bosnia, Chinese spies stealing nuke secrets, twin towers bombed in NYC and passed up 4 possible chanced to kill bin Laden, but didn't want to tarnish public image.

 

GHW Bush - Republican: Beat Saddam out of Kuwait but didn't finish the job. Lied about "no new taxes" and was booted.

 

R. Reagan - Republican: Won the Cold War but at a cost of trillions in debt.

 

Nixon - Republican: Got USA out of Viet Nam but was a "crook"

 

Johnson - Democrat: Got USA into Viet Nam by lying about attack on US forces, invaded without exit strategy. Personally micromanaged the war against the wishes of Military commanders. Created a no-win situation due to restricted bombing.

 

Truman - Democrat: Could have won Korea but allowed a rogue general to operate on his own for years and attack China and draw them into the war.

 

Roosevelt - Democrat: took 3 years to finally come to the aid of allies in WW2 and dropped the A-bomb on Japan "to save lives of Americans"

 

Wilson - Democrat: after winning with a campaign slogan of "he kept us out of war" he sent US troops to fight in WW1 which resulted in 300,000+ casualties.

 

Lincoln - Republican: Freed the slaves and was assassinated.

 

===========================

 

So as you can see, Democrats have a long history of war. They have a history of not fighting wars very well. A Democrat dropped the Atomic Bombs. There have been a million+ Casualties while a Democrat has been President. So really- Can people on the left really claim to know what's best in time of war?

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Guest PostProdMan

Wasn't Roosevelt dead? He didn't drop the A-bomb, it was Truman. You got the party affiliation right though...not to start anything, but when you miss a major "fact" in your posts, it kinda ruins everything else. A lot like a typo in the dictionary, or the use of trendwhore graphics in a "new" and hip mograph piece...

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Guest AMO

After following this very interesting thread for a couple of days, I have come to several conclusions:

 

a) There are some very intelligent, curious, GREAT logical thinkers and writers in the MoGraph community (Govinda!!! Igor, Pixelthief amongst others).

 

B) There are some very intelligent, NOT so curious, Illogical thinkers and writers in the MoGraph community whom I suspect are great technicians but not very ARTISTIC.

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Guest Sidewinder

From the outside (Australia) America's gov has just gone too far. And what is worse is that our stupid kiss US ass government followed. I have nothing against american people but damn, the situation has gone to far now. believe which ever sides political spin you want to believe but you cannot poke your nose into a situation that intense and expect everything to be roses and kisses afterwards. And how did bush get into office again? who the freak is voting for him?

 

I shudder everytime i see american politics now...they all seem like they are on their high horses taking a dump on the rest of the world. Have scandals, impeach a few presidents, violate a few laws in office but don't ignite wars that could lead to who knows what in the future.

 

thats my .2c

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