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Taking it a bit too far?

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That's not the best example :)

 

Classical piano, for example, is taught by professors because that is all they have to base on structured music. They are working from the root, not a branch. Everything in motion right now is pretty much a copy of a copy, even with different aesthetics. So a tutorial shows a copy of a copy of a copy to a newbie audience and they take that copy of a copy of a copy and create a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy.

 

When you get paid to solve problems, it is a bit unprofessional to take one aspect of it and show it to millions of people and go "Aha! YOU SEE! THIS IS HOW HE DID IT!."

 

 

Of course music lessons are a good example. Forget piano for a second...say a guitar teacher wants to show you how to play a few chords of a Led Zeppelin song, and maybe that song's roots are in blues or country. And those blues songs' roots are in religious music. Isn't that a "copy of a copy of a copy" too?

 

We do get paid to solve problems, and if breaking down another project helps you solve a future problem, I don't think most of us have a problem with it. It becomes unprofessional when the paid project is a direct reflection of another designers work (plagiarism) which is stealing. I think we can agree on that.

 

 

 

 

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a lot of you guys who say it's no big deal obviously haven't worked alongside rockstar designers who essentially give up apart of their soul with each storyboard they deliver. real designers are some of the most protective artists that have ever existed.

 

i've seen many a lids blown because one studio or designer decided to piggyback on the efforts of another.

 

 

by all means, nick is a great guy and he does have a pretty good grasp of reality. but he hasn't realized his audience consists of mostly self-indulged teenagers who don't have the slightest idea of what integrity means or what is involved in real design.

 

this doesn't worry me though. we spot em a mile away anyways. i just hate the recent influx of unabashed copycats who have their heads held high not knowing they're bringing down industry standards, and essentially ruining nick's, and those victimized designers', reputations.

 

 

and let's not forget, animation is nothing without design.

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Art students have been copying the masters way before mograph. I don't see any difference. Doesn't bother Rembrandt.

 

But still, those students of his had to put much more effort into it... That's what it comes down to ultimately: A chimp can follow a video tutorial and repeat the mouse clicks, yet he may never even remotely begin to understand the underlying principles whereas those painters of old at least needed to learn how to mimic their masters' brush strokes. I would even go so far as to say that watching some of those tutorials keeps you dumb because when all is said and done, there is no need or no room for exploration. That may be fine for many users who are stuck in a specific industry and repeat the same steps over and over using the ever same templates, but wouldn't it be more desirable to have "smnart" users? And I'm not even talking about stealing design ideas, it's just as much a matter of technical knowledge....

 

Mylenium

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What's funny is that even the people who criticize Nick still watch his tutorials.

 

I guarantee nobody at Prologue has any need to be threatened by Nick.

I also guarantee that Nick is doing nothing more than streamlining a process that is already in place.

That AT&T spot has already been given to me as a reference by two separate clients.

Even in the largest of studios... the initial "research" often includes pulling apart the work of other studios.

 

@microdot: What!? Someone else ripped my "drink n' tut"!? I *INVENTED* that. ;)

 

@killkillakillyo: After reading several of your rants about design/animation/art/tech I'd love to see you whip of a venn diagram that reflects your beliefs/philosophy.

 

-m

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I used to be much more outspoken about this kind of stuff. I've even posted here a few times reflecting on things like this. But i've come to realize something as I've been working more and more in this industry; the truth comes out eventually. And you'll either be praised, or ridiculed and run out of town. All the tutorials out there "exposing" projects, breaking down popular animations, etc. None of that should worry anyone who has work in this industry already. The majority of people who watch these tutorials do it for their own means. To show off, but not to really take it further than that. If they actually DID get hired for their work full of tutorials, that fact would come up very quickly as tutorial work doesn't cover working with clients, dealing with creative problem solving and reacting to the client's every whim. I think the reason why these discussions still keep coming up from time to time about tutorial work is the underlying fear that people will not only blatantly copy the tutorial, or not learn the why to the how, but that they'll get undeserved credit and praise for their copied tutorial, and I've realized thats just silly. So what, they're adored by tons of people who go "Oooh, dats awsum! How u do taht?!", and they pretend they did it themselves. Big deal. If a client sees it and doesn't understand its a tutorial and tries to hire them, the truth will come out when the client wants to start changing the project.

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Nick does use the site to build his reputation but people come to his site because he already has a reputation and he knows what he is talking about . Most of the stuff he breaks down is stuff that other people ask him about on twitter or email and he just tries to help them figure it out , the results aren't carbon copies and he never claims that the method he uses is the method that was used by its original creator . He just uses this as an exercise to teach people new stuff . Some of the stuff he is trying to recreate end up different from the original too . I clearly remember that at the end of his Discovery tutorial nick couldn't still figure out how they got the cubes to be different in size and he acknowledged that .<br style="text-shadow: none;">As for selling stuff, he never forced it on anybody , in all of his recent tutorials he gives two ways to texture and light the scene , one with Lightkit pro and the other without , so he isn't trying to sell anything , Buying the stuff he offers has so far been optional.<br style="text-shadow: none;">Most of the beautiful stuff I see online is abiut taste rather than technique, Its where the hard part is and that's where the trial and error is , not in the technique itself IMO and its what I personally think lack at the moment .. I lack taste . I'm working on it but I still lack it<br style="text-shadow: none;">People like Nick , Tim , Robert and Mike and others have really helped me and many others like me with their tutorials and personally by answering specific questions and I personally never redid a tutorial and rendered it , I just watch through and try the stuff they are trying to teach so I can use it and integrate it in other projects . IMO motion design is cumilitative and one guy does something , the other learns to do it and uses it in a different way and makes something beautiful too that other people :earn and use and so on . <br style="text-shadow: none;">

Edited by Zickar

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What's funny is that even the people who criticize Nick still watch his tutorials.

 

I guarantee nobody at Prologue has any need to be threatened by Nick.

 

I'll agree that no one is likely to feel threatened by this. I still don't understand why he wouldn't take an hour to whip up his own example instead of recreating the AT&T thing frame for frame though. Like I said before, I don't think it's a very big deal, I just think it's a bit lame.

 

Now if you'll all excuse me, I'm in the middle of recreating some guy's NAB tutorial on time tracks so I can embed it between the ads on my site. ;)

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It certainly annoys me. I don't think Nick did anything wrong though. He is just showing people how to make stuff.

 

Maybe what gets me are the fanboys. You'd think this was the cure for cancer.

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The techniques involved in this endtag aren't that sophisticated

as Nick could've easily incorporated them into something different and of his own.

Could be interpreted as a lack of creativity.

 

I mean putting a displace deformer on an Icosahedron, wrapping

circles around it and doing some basic transitions aren't that hard to do.

The things which actually make the endtag breathing are missing in his "copy".

The carefully colored triangles and the attached type on some of the peaks are neat.

Could be interpreted as a lack of craftsmanship.

 

Finally, he's not teaching, he's showing.

There's a significant difference there.

 

I agree with this completely. There is a lot of attention to detail missing in Nick's tut for the end tag. I'm sure he doesn't have the time or interest to copy it 100% though.

 

 

 

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a lot of you guys who say it's no big deal obviously haven't worked alongside rockstar designers who essentially give up apart of their soul with each storyboard they deliver. real designers are some of the most protective artists that have ever existed.

 

Really? This is a little exaggerative to say the least…so since I like to share knowledge and techniques with people that doesn't make me a "real designer"? I call bullshit. That's the "designer is exalted point of view" and honestly it's immature and tired. I think one of the main reason people don't share their "tricks" is that people will end up using them irresponsibly and think, oh, well this can be my design solution to everything. You're not giving up some kind of competitive advantage because if someone else can't figure the same things out on their own then giving them a grab bag full of tricks and techniques won't help them.

 

As far as the tutorials goes, I've always wondered if there's even a market for theory based tutorials that teach the why and not the how. Obviously FXPHD, some Cineversity, and others do this well, but I feel like they're less popular because they do require thought. Regarding the AT&T bit, you know what they say about flattery and imitation…

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a lot of you guys who say it's no big deal obviously haven't worked alongside rockstar designers who essentially give up apart of their soul with each storyboard they deliver. real designers are some of the most protective artists that have ever existed.

 

How do you know that? I've worked next to a lot of designers who put their "all" into their work. I like to think I do the same most of the time, even if I'm not as good as the bigger "rockstars" out there. Again, we can agree that copying someone's work and claiming it as your own is wrong. Showing how to create something, giving away tricks, etc, isn't as big a deal. I'd like to hear from some of the "rockstar" designers on this board to see what they have to say.

 

Anyone out there?

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I think monovich hit the nail on the head. Nick seems like an alright dude, fanboys however are cringeworthy. Then again this is the case with anyone/anything/anywhere/anywhen.

 

He gave credit to the guys that made the original project and from the get is clear that hes just breaking down a technique. He's not actively seeking work as a designer for clients at the moment, so theres nothing about this that says "this is my work"

 

also no one was up in arms a year ago when he did the same thing...

 

Discovery Cube Transition

 

just sayin...

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I'm not a fan of the guy and understand where Pix3l is coming from but at the end of the day grayscale and his tuts don't effect me in providing for my family so more power to him. If you don't like what the guy is doing then don't go to his site. Personally I think learning on the job has way more advantage than online tutorials because when you have to solve problems for yourself they tend to stay in your mind more than if you follow a step by step of someone else work. I've watched videos in the past by like Harry Frank and took notes and learned a few tricks but at the end of the day my skill sets came from being giving a project and having to figure out how to make it happen.

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I'm not a fan of the guy and understand where Pix3l is coming from but at the end of the day grayscale and his tuts don't effect me in providing for my family so more power to him. If you don't like what the guy is doing then don't go to his site. Personally I think learning on the job has way more advantage than online tutorials because when you have to solve problems for yourself they tend to stay in your mind more than if you follow a step by step of someone else work. I've watched videos in the past by like Harry Frank and took notes and learned a few tricks but at the end of the day my skill sets came from being giving a project and having to figure out how to make it happen.

 

Well put, Mr. Winbush :)

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Obviously FXPHD, some Cineversity, and others do this well, but I feel like they're less popular because they do require thought.

 

That and at least for FXPHD or Gnomon some courses are also a bit on the expensive side. It's also a question of how much you can actually learn by having "industry veterans" show you how they worked with endless resources on their latest movie and the next day you have to go back to the dreary reality of your own small shop... ;-) And of course it's simply a problem of sheer mass vs. quality - you can watch and rebuild tutes 24/7 and not have time to do something else. The sheer mass no doubt is also what keeps people away from being more picky in terms of quality. Only when you realize after watching thirty tutorials on the same matter that you still do not know anything, people realize they need something different...

 

Mylenium

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Personally I think learning on the job has way more advantage than online tutorials because when you have to solve problems for yourself they tend to stay in your mind more than if you follow a step by step of someone else work. I've watched videos in the past by like Harry Frank and took notes and learned a few tricks but at the end of the day my skill sets came from being giving a project and having to figure out how to make it happen.

 

well said. I pop on GSG every now & again, it's good for what it is, a limited C4D resource.

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@microdot: What!? Someone else ripped my "drink n' tut"!? I *INVENTED* that. ;)

 

 

 

Sayin, I've been seeing bedhead PiP video with sipping drinks.

Blatant copying.

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Sharing knowledge only serves to grow a healthy community of artists. Animation and design will only get better through tutorials like this. Nick is taking something that is relevant right now and breaking it down. Yeah, sure, some people may recreate the ATT end tag and claim it as his/her own. Who cares? If they're not a great designer, they'll be out of a job soon anyway.

 

I ALWAYS share my tips and techniques with my coworkers in order to create a higher level of design and animation. Should we sacrifice a healthy knowledge base and vibrant community because a few people may not use the information in a way you approve?? I mean c'mon, the reality is this is harmless.

 

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TUTORIALS ARE GOOD FOR BEGINNERS, AND THE GENERIC MASS OF ARTISTS JUST STARTING OUT. I NEVER SEE MYSELF LOOKING AT TUTORIALS AND ACTUALLY DOING THEM ANYMORE, I USUALLY SCROLL THROUGH TO FIND THE SECTION THAT IM INTERESTED IN SEEING HOW THE AUTHOR DID IT. I THINK OF IT AS HAVING A CONVERSATION WITH SOMEONE ABOUT WHAT THERE TECHNIQUE WAS.

 

I UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE COULD HAVE A PROBLEM, BUT IT SHOULDN'T RESULT IN PEOPLE 'HIDING' SECRETS OR TRICKS.

 

ONCE SOMEONE DOES SOMETHING SWEET, EVERYONE WANTS TO DO IT TOO. THAT WILL NEVER CHANGE, AND NO ONE CAN 'HIDE' THERE SECRET FOR TOO LONG, BECAUSE THERE IS A MILLION WAYS TO DO ALMOST ANYTHING (IN MOST CASES).

 

HIDING SECRETS/TECHNIQUES DOES A FEW THINGS:

 

1) YOU LOOSE THE ABILITY TO HAVE FRIENDS, BECAUSE YOUR JUST A DOUCHE

 

2) THE KNOWLEDGE YOU COULD HAVE POTENTIALLY GAINED FROM A PEER WILL BE LOST, MAINLY BECAUSE YOUR JUST A DOUCHE.

 

 

I DON'T KNOW WHAT COMPANIES YOU GUYS FOR, BUT AT MINE, WE ARE A TEAM. A TEAM MEANS YOU WORK TOGETHER AND HELP EACH OTHER OUT, AND IF YOUR ALWAYS TRYING TO OUT-DO EVERYONE (WHICH ISN'T A BAD THING), BUT THEN NOT BACKING THEM UP TO HELP, THEN YOUR ALMOST HURTING YOUR COMPANY BY NOT SPREADING THE WEALTH OF KNOWLEDGE, AND JUST BEING GREEDY.

 

OK IM DONE, GREAT CONVERSATION THOUGH. B)

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That and at least for FXPHD or Gnomon some courses are also a bit on the expensive side. It's also a question of how much you can actually learn by having "industry veterans" show you how they worked with endless resources on their latest movie and the next day you have to go back to the dreary reality of your own small shop... ;-) And of course it's simply a problem of sheer mass vs. quality - you can watch and rebuild tutes 24/7 and not have time to do something else. The sheer mass no doubt is also what keeps people away from being more picky in terms of quality. Only when you realize after watching thirty tutorials on the same matter that you still do not know anything, people realize they need something different...

 

Mylenium

 

Price is definitely a higher entry point for those resources. The endless resources bit is interesting, I feel the same way reading trades or interviews, it all sounds cool and doable, but, you know…that time and money thing.

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I ALWAYS share my tips and techniques with my coworkers in order to create a higher level of design and animation.

 

 

So you just send them links to Grayscale tutorials...or?

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I think one of the arguments here isn't primarily about the spread of knowledge, or the idea that people will just follow the tutorial and slap it on their reel.

I think most of us agree that the sharing of knowledge is completely reasonable.

 

What the argument that sparks a lot of heat is sort of like, what if you created something beautiful and conceptually moving. You feel accomplished that you created (relatively) original that you racked your head over for weeks or months. Then the following day or week, you see an extremely similar effect done by someone else, and its in their reel, and it's getting them attention, you feel cheated.

It's the same process as writing an essay for school, then your friends ask you to copy it because they didnt do it. Giving it to them and sharing your knowledge really does no harm, but you feel cheated cause you spent the hours in it, and when you see someone else hand off their essay, you feel cheated as well, because you might think, if they didn't do their homework, why should he be excused like that by plagiarizing.

 

What's happening here, is that some people are feeling cheated because you want to see great work and the original designers for them. When you see other people passing that work off as "oh thats simple to make, theres even a tutorial now for it," in a sense it devalues the strength of mystery of the piece, which for us as motion designers, really compels us, because we go WOW how is that done? but when Nick does the tutorial, its like a magician giving away the secret.

 

Its hard to see where the balance is, because true designers will stay true designers and the ones who do tutorials will be separated. But i think its mainly that respectability for the actual piece that gets hurt here. The knowledge that is spread is beneficial for all of us. And thats why the people who criticize will still follow the tutorials. But its that sense of, "hes just plagiarizing." thats going to irk us.

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