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Taking it a bit too far?

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So you just send them links to Grayscale tutorials...or?

 

Sometimes. Other times I show them something I discovered. Either way, who cares where it came from? With this knowledge, new techniques, and ultimately new art, can be formed.

 

Learning from and building upon other artists serves our community.

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@killkillakillyo: After reading several of your rants about design/animation/art/tech I'd love to see you whip of a venn diagram that reflects your beliefs/philosophy.

 

my venn diagrams make babies cry blood.

 

 

 

Really? This is a little exaggerative to say the least…so since I like to share knowledge and techniques with people that doesn't make me a "real designer"? I call bullshit. That's the "designer is exalted point of view" and honestly it's immature and tired. I think one of the main reason people don't share their "tricks" is that people will end up using them irresponsibly and think, oh, well this can be my design solution to everything. You're not giving up some kind of competitive advantage because if someone else can't figure the same things out on their own then giving them a grab bag full of tricks and techniques won't help them.

 

As far as the tutorials goes, I've always wondered if there's even a market for theory based tutorials that teach the why and not the how. Obviously FXPHD, some Cineversity, and others do this well, but I feel like they're less popular because they do require thought. Regarding the AT&T bit, you know what they say about flattery and imitation…

 

nobody is dissing you a2. but unless your first tool of choice is photoshop, then you are not a designer as far as i'm concerned. you might call yourself a designer, heck your clients might think you are a designer, but send your portfolio to psyop and tell them you're a designer. see if they call. there seems to be a big gap between individuals who call themselves designers, and a "studio's" definition of the word. if you make a living developing storyboards and pitch material, then you are a motion graphics designer.

 

now back to the point, i've been lucky enough to have sat next to some very talented "designers", and they are very touchy with their work. i've also seen reels literally get trashed because of the most faint traces of tutorial work and plagiarism. real designers do not want their work broken apart or tutorialized verbatim. this is how they make their money and doing so jeopardizes their appeal to clients. it's called being "played out".

 

we can't patent good design, but there is an underlying code of ethics here that most newbies bypass altogether.

 

 

 

How do you know that? I've worked next to a lot of designers who put their "all" into their work. I like to think I do the same most of the time, even if I'm not as good as the bigger "rockstars" out there. Again, we can agree that copying someone's work and claiming it as your own is wrong. Showing how to create something, giving away tricks, etc, isn't as big a deal. I'd like to hear from some of the "rockstar" designers on this board to see what they have to say.

 

i haven't seen any designers on this board. there are a lot of animators and generalist, but no designers.

Edited by killkillakillyo

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Howdy,

 

Great thoughts so far. It's really really interesting to read this stuff.

 

I talked a bit about this thread at the beginning of my live show today. I figure I'll link you there since I'm probably better at speaking a mic than with written words these days.

http://greyscalegorilla.com/blog/2011/03/gsg-live-cast-learning-how-to-copy-and-other-ways-to-play-guitar/

 

Cheers,

Nick

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my babies cry blood.

 

 

Do I need to drag out this thing again?

 

 

 

I thought all of this had been settled years ago.

 

Designers wear scarves, yes, all of them.

The thinner and more functionless the scarf, the better the designer.

 

Animators have stains on their clothes,

from eating at their desks, working hard to make the design the thinnest scarf

created actually animate, because he knows ligatures like a mofo, but can't 'design for animation' for dogshit.

 

 

Creative problem solving is creative problem solving, whether you drive a forklift, fight fires, or are a brain surgeon.

 

In the words of Kenny Shopsin,

We're all pieces of shit.

 

 

Don't take yourself so fucking seriously.

 

 

-------

 

Not entirely relevant to the 'copy tut' issue, but neither is the inevitable design pomposity that flares up in every other post.

 

Burn your scarves.

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my venn diagrams make babies cry blood.

 

 

 

 

 

nobody is dissing you a2. but unless your first tool of choice is photoshop, then you are not a designer as far as i'm concerned. you might call yourself a designer, heck your clients might think you are a designer, but send your portfolio to psyop and tell them you're a designer. see if they call. there seems to be a big gap between individuals who call themselves designers, and a "studio's" definition of the word. if you make a living developing storyboards and pitch material, then you are a motion graphics designer.

 

now back to the point, i've been lucky enough to have sat next to some very talented "designers", and they are very touchy with their work. i've also seen reels literally get trashed because of the most faint traces of tutorial work and plagiarism. real designers do not want their work broken apart or tutorialized verbatim. this is how they make their money and doing so jeopardizes their appeal to clients. it's called being "played out".

 

we can't patent good design, but there is an underlying code of ethics here that most newbies bypass altogether.

 

 

 

 

 

i haven't seen any designers on this board. there are a lot of animators and generalist, but no designers.

 

 

I forgot that Psyop are the sole deciders of who's a designer or not. Duh, thanks for reminding me, I'll be sure to remember that in the future. Also, I never said you were dissing me, it's just your logic is faulty. And if I remember correctly you're pretty young and new to this industry, so I don't know what breadth of knowledge you're drawing on here. About nine months ago you were talking about how you were "easing into the scene" but now you know what makes a designer and what doesn't. Seems silly to me.

 

Also seems silly that I'm entertaining this tit-a-tat.

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Creative problem solving is creative problem solving, whether you drive a forklift, fight fires, or are a brain surgeon.

 

In the words of Kenny Shopsin,

We're all pieces of shit.

 

 

Don't take yourself so fucking seriously.

 

...

 

Burn your scarves.

 

 

Preach on, brotha! :lol:

 

R

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I don't agree that what GSG did was plagiarism. I think that releasing tutorials based on current/relevant motion graphics raises the bar for all of us. You can either get frustrated and complain or you can get to work.

Edited by Trione

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Howdy,

 

Great thoughts so far. It's really really interesting to read this stuff.

 

I talked a bit about this thread at the beginning of my live show today. I figure I'll link you there since I'm probably better at speaking a mic than with written words these days.

http://greyscalegori...to-play-guitar/

 

Cheers,

Nick

 

Glad I was able to help come up with a show title this time, even if it was indirectly! :P

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i haven't seen any designers on this board. there are a lot of animators and generalist, but no designers.

 

 

No offense, kill, but look closer. There are plenty of designers here, myself included.

 

 

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Howdy,

 

Great thoughts so far. It's really really interesting to read this stuff.

 

I talked a bit about this thread at the beginning of my live show today. I figure I'll link you there since I'm probably better at speaking a mic than with written words these days.

http://greyscalegorilla.com/blog/2011/03/gsg-live-cast-learning-how-to-copy-and-other-ways-to-play-guitar/

 

Cheers,

Nick

 

Thanks for being open to discussion Nick. Not to beat a dead horse or anything, as like I mentioned earlier I don't think you're knowingly doing something wrong, it just seems misguided. In the interest of keeping the discussion going:

 

In your video response you say something along the lines of "shame anyone who uses my tutorials in their demo reels". I guess I don't really see the difference between some newb recreating your tutorials in his demo reel to get business for himself, and you recreating someone else's work on your site right next to where you offer $150 C4D presets. Sure you aren't selling these tutorials, but you are using them to help push the "GSG brand" a little further, and in turn sell some presets or iphone apps, are you not?

 

Does that not make your website your "reel" of sorts? - A place where you showcase your work for free in order to drum up business? How is some newb following your steps and showcasing it to get business any less ethical than you following someone else's work frame-by-frame in order to get more visitors to your site?

 

I guess it can all be summed up with one question: Why not just base it on your own work? Would the tutorial not be just as popular if you simply left AT&T out if it, made an original GSG creation, and called it the "Triangle Globe Tutorial" or something? If the answer is "More people will visit my site if I base it on the AT&T spot", then aren't you, albeit indirectly, profiting from Prologue's work?

 

 

(I hope none of this came off as overly dickish. I'm genuinely interested in discussing it, though I understand you may not want to reply any more. I just want to know the communities stance on this so I can go repackage Monkey's NAB presentation as a 10 part DVD series: "KICKIN' IT MOGRAPH STYLE wit' DA BIGGIEBOY" ;))

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i just have never thought it was a great place to "learn"

 

sometimes, tone wise, i feel like he's talking to a room of children

 

 

 

 

 

it was a great to see the videos by simon and chris more in depth about cinema 4D other than some basic primitives with decent render settings, thats the easiest part in cinema 4D

and what happened to the Guerilla 3D videos - now those had some good general theory in practice

 

 

 

clapham and the kiwi are where its at if one is looking to understand cinema 4D - somehow GSG has become huge because the example frames look nice, and he does really well at the online presence thing.

 

not trying to be too rough, but it does feel a little spoonfed and dangerous to fill the market up with kids like that kid from idaho running around emulating Nick doing their own tutorials about fresnel in reflections and dynamic objects dropping

 

maybe i already said too much, but as far as free videos i wish i spoke german

 

that said, I have been respecting Nick Campbell since he made that rollercoaster with AE when he "burst onto the scene"

 

it's all good. there are wars, famines and earthquakes to really care about

 

 

 

 

 

 

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To take a stance like this you need to be against the entire structure of art education. From what your saying unless your learning design from Walter Gropious or Mies van der Rohe your school, the faculty and everyone involved have no integrity or ethics. In traditional art classes one of the first assignments is to recreate a piece of art from one of the masters. You learn by doing. And as the Monkey stated I highly doubt Prologue is threatened in the least by this. Yes any kid can watch this tut and learn this method but that doesn't mean he can go in front of a large cooperation and develop concept and execute it. Tutorials are technical plain and simple. And for anyone to question Nick as a designer is absurd. He may not be the greatest but he got where he is today through his hard work.

 

My old techniques are in my toolbox and I don't want to tell anyone shit because it took blood sweat & tears to get there. You can't just throw away what you've discovered.

 

It may have taken you blood sweat and tears to learn what button to push and when but that still doesn't make it yours or original. Information and knowledge is free. Regardless oh how hidden in the darkest dungeon of your mind your techniques may be they will always be discovered and learned by others through their own processes. Knowing what button to click or effect to use means nothing. People need to stop being so threatened by technical ability. Yes it is important but technique and skill will only get you so far. The "how" doesn't mean shit, anyone can do that, the "why" is what is important. And a tutorial like this does nothing to threaten the stability of our creative industry. If anything the abundance of knowledge will help to separate the men from the boys. Those who can use their minds and not be limited to button pushing and those who cant...

 

 

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Not really a big deal

 

I agree, every reel I see that's loaded with tutorials all I can think of is JOB SECURITY ... also If you can't make something without someone elses help, you need to find a new career

 

What Nick's doing is pretty cool, I've learned some stuff ... granted now everyone is an "animator" but ya know whatevah, I'm still having fun making cool shit

 

but that's just my 2 cents

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I'm jaded.

 

I think ideally he should base his tutorials on original concepts but compared to the volume and strength of the bullshit I've seen going on in the mograph/TV/advertising industries what he's doing doesn't even register with me as being wrong.

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All this being said, I look forward to seeing this tutorial and many more. I find them (Nick's and others') fun to watch, even when I don't take away an actual technique that I think I'll use. It's just cool to be part of an online community of designers/animators that look out for each other.

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It may have taken you blood sweat and tears to learn what button to push and when but that still doesn't make it yours or original. Information and knowledge is free. Regardless oh how hidden in the darkest dungeon of your mind your techniques may be they will always be discovered and learned by others through their own processes. Knowing what button to click or effect to use means nothing. People need to stop being so threatened by technical ability. Yes it is important but technique and skill will only get you so far. The "how" doesn't mean shit, anyone can do that, the "why" is what is important. And a tutorial like this does nothing to threaten the stability of our creative industry. If anything the abundance of knowledge will help to separate the men from the boys. Those who can use their minds and not be limited to button pushing and those who cant...

 

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Good design is not button pushing. It's conception and execution. Your execution and the style you do your project in is dictated by your concept. Your concept is your own. You own that.

 

If you think good motion graphics is technical execution then you're clearly mistaken.

 

How would you feel if you were Kyle Cooper and released the titles for Se7en, then a year later, I released a tutorial on how to do it EXACTLY that way when in the first place the piece itself has a strong conceptual connection with the film itself. That specific designer had a problem to solve, and he did so perfectly. Why would anyone take that piece at face value and try to recreate it?

 

It's like taking what Toyota has done with the Camry and just creating another Camry in your factory and naming it Mamry. Free for all to analyze and make in their own homes.

 

Designers who care about design will definitely see the downsides of taking something and trying to copy it exactly, even if it's for educational purposes.

 

Why not do something brand new and base a tutorial on that? I don't know why it sounds so hard for the people that make tutorials.

Edited by pix3l

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well this thread grew waay too quickly for me to read all 4 pages, but read the 1st one, and i take offence to pix3l's claim that his teachers had "integrity" as opposed to internet based tutorials.

 

But I can't really get into any arguments with Pix3l, because i can't see his work and hence i can't make any judgement on how good his teachers where.

 

i think the days of anonimity on places like this are very limited, it is very hard to take anyone who has no identity seriously here. I mean you could be an accountant who is trying to get into mograph for the last 4 years for all we know.

 

the main point that leads me to believe this is when you said you spent long hours and sweated it to develop your techniques and you don't want to share them. That is a very old world approach. The whole point of the world we live in now, is to share everything you can in order make everyone's life better. I mean that's what this community is all about. I honestly just find your approach disgusting. Keeping all your secrets to yourself, seems like such a troll thing to do. And sad at the same time i guess, it just seems like you have a lot of hate towards all the people around you, like they are out to get you.

 

anyway all good,

 

..ive lost the rest of my train of thought, so everyone enjoy.

 

Oh yeah, and to anyone who hasn't check out my tutorials, I really try to teach technical concepts as opposed on how to make shit look pretty. not Really the whole "Art" aspect, but I teach what i know how to teach.

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I think anyone who is worried sick about what Nick is doing is either:

 

a) not got enough work to do because they're spending they're time ranting

B) worried a "noob" is going to take money from them, in which case you must be very unconfident in your own abilities

 

The main downside of Nicks tuts are the fanboys. And yeah it's kinda disappointing to see Nick not have any original stuff but I think any self respecting designer only takes away the little technical tid bits or "oh that's a way easier way to do a task I usually have to do". But I do think Nick is an asset to the design community. Is he helping more than he's "hurting" by creating all these fanboys? That's up in the air. 3D kiwi, Robert ledger, and pariah rob are the people I follow the most because they help me think outside of the box and leave alot for you to think outside the box and run with a concept of your own using some advanced techniques. Great discussion.

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there it is: worried a "noob" is going to take money from them, in which case you must be very unconfident in your own abilities

 

I agree with that 100%, i mean comon, do you really want to be doing work that can be done by a graduate following a tutorial? I can see how this can be annoying, if you used to be paid for this basic stuff, and now those jobs have dissapeared, but the internet has brought an end to the advantage anyone got from going to uni and learning a piece of software. ITs OVER, that's it, you can't do anything about it. That time is gone for motion graphics, just like its gone for photographers and copy writers and programmers and everyone else who thinks they are better than everyone because they keep all all their knowledge secret in the hopes that they will keep an advantage.

Edited by vozzz

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well this thread grew waay too quickly for me to read all 4 pages, but read the 1st one, and i take offence to pix3l's claim that his teachers had "integrity" as opposed to internet based tutorials.

 

But I can't really get into any arguments with Pix3l, because i can't see his work and hence i can't make any judgement on how good his teachers where.

 

i think the days of anonimity on places like this are very limited, it is very hard to take anyone who has no identity seriously here. I mean you could be an accountant who is trying to get into mograph for the last 4 years for all we know.

 

the main point that leads me to believe this is when you said you spent long hours and sweated it to develop your techniques and you don't want to share them. That is a very old world approach. The whole point of the world we live in now, is to share everything you can in order make everyone's life better. I mean that's what this community is all about. I honestly just find your approach disgusting. Keeping all your secrets to yourself, seems like such a troll thing to do. And sad at the same time i guess, it just seems like you have a lot of hate towards all the people around you, like they are out to get you.

 

anyway all good,

 

..ive lost the rest of my train of thought, so everyone enjoy.

 

Oh yeah, and to anyone who hasn't check out my tutorials, I really try to teach technical concepts as opposed on how to make shit look pretty. not Really the whole "Art" aspect, but I teach what i know how to teach.

 

Very poor judgement on a person you have never met.

 

Obviously I'm not the only one who feels the way I do, or else this thread wouldn't get any replies.

 

No one is talking about Nick's ability as a designer. And no one can, because he's solid.

 

It's the overall tutorial cloud that's been growing rapidly over the years.

 

It's also not about whether high end studios will hire you or not.

 

I think anyone who is worried sick about what Nick is doing is either:

 

a) not got enough work to do because they're spending they're time ranting

B) worried a "noob" is going to take money from them, in which case you must be very unconfident in your own abilities

 

The main downside of Nicks tuts are the fanboys. And yeah it's kinda disappointing to see Nick not have any original stuff but I think any self respecting designer only takes away the little technical tid bits or "oh that's a way easier way to do a task I usually have to do". But I do think Nick is an asset to the design community. Is he helping more than he's "hurting" by creating all these fanboys? That's up in the air. 3D kiwi, Robert ledger, and pariah rob are the people I follow the most because they help me think outside of the box and leave alot for you to think outside the box and run with a concept of your own using some advanced techniques. Great discussion.

 

I don't think this is a comment box for Lil' Wayne videos on YouTube, so your non sequitur comments have no merit. "WHY YOU HATIN'?"

 

Look at the replies. Obviously there are people who have various opinions regarding this subject.

 

It's a healthy discussion. Let it live.

 

there it is: worried a "noob" is going to take money from them, in which case you must be very unconfident in your own abilities

 

I agree with that 100%, i mean comon, do you really want to be doing work that can be done by a graduate following a tutorial? I can see how this can be annoying, if you used to be paid for this basic stuff, and now those jobs have dissapeared, but the internet has brought an end to the advantage anyone got from going to uni and learning a piece of software. ITs OVER, that's it, you can't do anything about it. That time is gone for motion graphics, just like its gone for photographers and copy writers and programmers and everyone else who thinks they are better than everyone because they keep all all their knowledge secret in the hopes that they will keep an advantage.

 

Hope you don't take this offensively, but I think you're a bit daft. :)

 

This discussion has nothing to do with designers "keeping secrets." Look at the bigger picture. You're too technical.

Edited by pix3l

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I think you're looking at this the wrong way. Good design is not button pushing. It's conception and execution. Your execution and the style you do your project in is dictated by your concept. Your concept is your own. You own that.

 

I think you misunderstood what Novus4D was saying - he's not talking about design, but knowledge, technical ability, and skill development. You're equating the two, mistakenly I might add. No one here is saying that "good design" is "button pushing." The truth is, you need to be able to push those buttons to apply those design skills you've worked hard to acquire.

 

And I have to agree with Vozz in pointing out that in taking part in this discussion, it would make sense to edit your profile to include a link that isn't "http://www.nonyabisness.com." Yeesh!

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I think you misunderstood what Novus4D was saying - he's not talking about design, but knowledge, technical ability, and skill development. You're equating the two, mistakenly I might add. No one here is saying that "good design" is "button pushing." The truth is, you need to be able to push those buttons to apply those design skills you've worked hard to acquire.

 

And I have to agree with Vozz in pointing out that in taking part in this discussion, it would make sense to edit your profile to include a link that isn't "http://www.nonyabisness.com." Yeesh!

 

No, I perfectly understand what Novus4D is saying. No need to use arbitrary rhetoric to deviate from the current discussion. If the tutorials talked MORE about breaking down the concept and then figuring out WHY it was executed the way it was, then I don't think this discussion would even exist. That would open up the opportunity for people to think more conceptually rather than technically.

 

I don't need to post a link to my work here. I don't know what you're trying to do, insult me? That's impossible. And how rude of me to not include a link to my personal portfolio! YEESH!

 

Loads of fart knocks here who only think about "cool shit" and feeding their clients bullshit.

 

Don't really care how long anyone here has been in the business. I know 20 year olds who would wipe the floor with many of you. :)

 

Not trying to make you feel bad, just stating facts.

Edited by pix3l

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I don't buy the tutorials >= university education argument for a second. Well, I guess it probably depends on the university - it may be true in some cases. There's SO much more to get out of a design education that just learning which buttons to push. There are invaluable skills you gain from attending a school that you just can't get from a tutorial - no matter how many you watch. Speaking generally, anyway. I'm sure there are many people who are successful without ever having gone to school. But for the other 95% of us a proper education in the fundamentals of design is important.

 

As for Nick's tutorial - I can see both sides. It definitely serves an educational purpose - and being a former teacher myself I share Nick's desire to help others learn. However, I question whether it helps the future designers, who look up to Nick as a role model, to see him straight up copy someone else's work. What message is that sending kids like Sam Welker? I think it's fine to do that on your own. Everyone does when they're learning, especially in school. I just don't know that it needs to be a tutorial.

 

My $.02 for what it's worth.

 

R

 

 

Edit: Damnit. Pix3l beat me to it. Too slow for this thread.

Edited by RVA8

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