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Taking it a bit too far?

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No, I perfectly understand what Novus4D is saying. No need to use arbitrary rhetoric to deviate from the current discussion. If the tutorials talked MORE about breaking down the concept and then figuring out WHY it was executed the way it was, then I don't think this discussion would even exist. That would open up the opportunity for people to think more conceptually rather than technically.

 

I don't need to post a link to my work here. I don't know what you're trying to do, insult me? That's impossible. And how rude of me to not include a link to my personal portfolio! YEESH!

 

Loads of fart knocks here who only think about "cool shit" and feeding their clients bullshit.

 

Don't really care how long anyone here has been in the business. I know 20 year olds who would wipe the floor with many of you. :)

 

Not trying to make you feel bad, just stating facts.

 

Good golly miss molly, I'm not trying to insult you. But your defensiveness and name calling are a bit childish to say the least. I don't think I was using "arbitrary rhetoric," just coming to Novus4D's defense.

 

Of course you don't need to post a link to your work, but you also don't need to call others on this forum "fart knocks," "plagiarists" (incorrectly), and tell us that your teachers were/are better than ours and others, and then expect us not to wonder "who is this?"

 

Your post opened a good discussion about the nature of tutorials and the ethics behind 'em. We agree on some things here ("If you're just in it for the money, they you're in the wrong business." - TOTALLY AGREE!). I wish you'd try to see some of the shades of gray here.

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No, I perfectly understand what Novus4D is saying. No need to use arbitrary rhetoric to deviate from the current discussion. If the tutorials talked MORE about breaking down the concept and then figuring out WHY it was executed the way it was, then I don't think this discussion would even exist. That would open up the opportunity for people to think more conceptually rather than technically.

 

 

 

Wouldn't that be more dangerous than what he's doing now?

 

I guess at the end of the day, there are people who can take away bit and pieces from what he does and use it to execute their own ideas, and people who are going to do the same thing but change the bg color or the type or something arbitrary. Thats just how it goes.

 

How many commercials do you see that have some outlandish character talking about their product after Isaiah Mustafa and The Most Interesting Man in the World campaigns launched?

 

I'm not saying it's ok, just that it's inevitable. Theres enough shit to worry about out there without sweating balls over a guys tutorials.

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I don't buy the tutorials >= university education argument for a second. Well, I guess it probably depends on the university - it may be true in some cases. There's SO much more to get out of a design education that just learning which buttons to push.

 

Agree - nothing beats years of study. Can we agree that tutorials are a way to simply continue an education?

 

 

 

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daft? had to look it up, never used the word myself, "insane, mad; silly; stupid"

 

wow, what a nice way to put it....

 

See this is where it's getting confusing: "If you're just in it for the money, they you're in the wrong business." , yet you openly claim that you refuse to share your secrets and techniques that you have developed.

 

Honestly im starting to think that you don't post a link to your work because you are afraid people will make tutorials on how to make it. Which until recenlty, would've been probably unlikely. But now I think i just might if your work gets posted =)

 

 

AND:

 

"Very poor judgement on a person you have never met." REally? and who's fault is that. if you had any kind of reputation apart from being outspoken, then maybe i would know you better. This thread has generally been a pretty interesting read ( read the whole thing now), but mostly you just offend people anonymously. And you're other majore supported Killkill, who seems to have the same values as you, and also lacks a profile... The only people I've met in this industry with your attitudes are those who constantly try so screw over people starting out in the industry by not paying them... Generally the people i've met and talked to in this industry are friendly, supportive and love to share their knowledge, so really makes me think who you are, and who are these rockstar designers you've met.

 

you don't have to post a link to your work, but it makes it kinda difficult to take your opinions seriously, you could be 12 for all we know...

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Pix3l,

 

You are being quite childish. In my post not once did I say anything to the effect of "this is a dumb discussion it should die", in fact, I specifically said "this is a great discussion" so your "lil Wayne" gibberish is misplaced.

 

Not only are you in a blinding rage but your also not adding anything of substance in response to anyone's points now. I actually agree with some of your criticisms but youre too "daft" to see that i guess? Stick to a constructive criticism. When you resort to namecalling and putting down of many other designers, many of whom you don't even know, and some I'm sure that are better people and designers than you are, you're credibility comes into question.

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Agree - nothing beats years of study. Can we agree that tutorials are a way to simply continue an education?

 

Indeed. Or if you're like me and went to a school that taught almost all theory you need someone to help you figure out what buttons to push sometimes so you can put the theory into practice. ;)

 

R

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I forgot that Psyop are the sole deciders of who's a designer or not. Duh, thanks for reminding me, I'll be sure to remember that in the future. Also, I never said you were dissing me, it's just your logic is faulty. And if I remember correctly you're pretty young and new to this industry, so I don't know what breadth of knowledge you're drawing on here. About nine months ago you were talking about how you were "easing into the scene" but now you know what makes a designer and what doesn't. Seems silly to me.

 

Also seems silly that I'm entertaining this tit-a-tat.

 

actually i've been freelancing for about 3 years now. that "easing into the scene" thread was based on the assumption that there were more knowledgeable folk here who have been doing the freelance rounds for a while. doesn't seem to be the case since most of you guys can't oblige the fact that there is a huge difference between a designer and animator when it pertains to a studio pipeline. let me repeat that, stu-di-o pipe-line. i'm not talking about your 2 month internship at QVC. i'm talking about TDs ADs, and the whole gamut of duties that make up a typical studio pipeline, animators and designers included.

 

the point i was making is that a designer relies heavily on the novelty of his or her designs. nick is not doing anything wrong. but when his audience shoves these types of tutorials into their reels and sends it to studios and clients, how are they to know which individual was the originator and which was the copycat. it's not that the original designer won't get credit, but now they are discredited for having that piece in their reel. producers will say "oh look, another one of the same project. must be a tutorial. trashbin."

 

i've seen countless number of reels that have shiny balls in them. sure it looks cool, but if everyone seems to have them, what makes them special? seen a couple reels with those rotating cubes that royale originally pitched for discovery. and the worst part is they look just as good as the original. were those individuals on the same team that made that spot? maybe royale based that spot off of nick's tutorial and we should take our business elsewhere.

 

of course i know these noobs aren't likely to profit off of borrowed visuals, but the damage goes beyond their own careers.

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daft? had to look it up, never used the word myself, "insane, mad; silly; stupid"

 

wow, what a nice way to put it....

 

See this is where it's getting confusing: "If you're just in it for the money, they you're in the wrong business." , yet you openly claim that you refuse to share your secrets and techniques that you have developed.

 

Honestly im starting to think that you don't post a link to your work because you are afraid people will make tutorials on how to make it. Which until recenlty, would've been probably unlikely. But now I think i just might if your work gets posted =)

 

 

AND:

 

"Very poor judgement on a person you have never met." REally? and who's fault is that. if you had any kind of reputation apart from being outspoken, then maybe i would know you better. This thread has generally been a pretty interesting read ( read the whole thing now), but mostly you just offend people anonymously. And you're other majore supported Killkill, who seems to have the same values as you, and also lacks a profile... The only people I've met in this industry with your attitudes are those who constantly try so screw over people starting out in the industry by not paying them... Generally the people i've met and talked to in this industry are friendly, supportive and love to share their knowledge, so really makes me think who you are, and who are these rockstar designers you've met.

 

you don't have to post a link to your work, but it makes it kinda difficult to take your opinions seriously, you could be 12 for all we know...

 

wow really?

 

vozz i've seen your work and i have no doubt that you are a good guy. but don't make me get justin harder on you.

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actually i've been freelancing for about 3 years now. that "easing into the scene" thread was based on the assumption that there were more knowledgeable folk here who have been doing the freelance rounds for a while. doesn't seem to be the case since most of you guys can't oblige the fact that there is a huge difference between a designer and animator when it pertains to a studio pipeline. let me repeat that, stu-di-o pipe-line. i'm not talking about your 2 month internship at QVC. i'm talking about TDs ADs, and the whole gamut of duties that make up a typical studio pipeline, animators and designers included.

 

the point i was making is that a designer relies heavily on the novelty of his or her designs. nick is not doing anything wrong. but when his audience shoves these types of tutorials into their reels and sends it to studios and clients, how are they to know which individual was the originator and which was the copycat. it's not that the original designer won't get credit, but now they are discredited for having that piece in their reel. producers will say "oh look, another one of the same project. must be a tutorial. trashbin."

 

i've seen countless number of reels that have shiny balls in them. sure it looks cool, but if everyone seems to have them, what makes them special? seen a couple reels with those rotating cubes that royale originally pitched for discovery. and the worst part is they look just as good as the original. were those individuals on the same team that made that spot? maybe royale based that spot off of nick's tutorial and we should take our business elsewhere.

 

of course i know these noobs aren't likely to profit off of borrowed visuals, but the damage goes beyond their own careers.

 

Although this is angry and not how I would have worded it, I generally agree with this statement.

 

Nick has not done anything wrong, but to quote Uncle Ben, with great power comes great responsibility.

 

By the way, when students turn in tutorials into my class, they don't exactly get an "A". I try and set up assignments as "Challenges" that have multiple solutions that happen to utilize the technical tools we've covered. So by attending (at least my courses) in design school, you are encouraged to think conceptually AND learn software AND get crit and feedback from peers.

 

c

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wow really?

 

vozz i've seen your work and i have no doubt that you are a good guy. but don't make me get justin harder on you.

 

don't know who justin harder is, any relation to justin bieber? =P

 

yeah, after i posted that, felt kinda bad dragging your name into it. my bad.

 

cheerios. need to get back to polishing my design skills, they need a lot of work... sigh..

Edited by vozzz

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By the way, when students turn in tutorials into my class, they don't exactly get an "A". I try and set up assignments as "Challenges" that have multiple solutions that happen to utilize the technical tools we've covered. So by attending (at least my courses) in design school, you are encouraged to think conceptually AND learn software AND get crit and feedback from peers.

 

you are a rare teacher....

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don't know who justin harder is, any relation to justin bieber? =P

 

yeah, after i posted that, felt kinda bad dragging your name into it. my bad.

 

cheerios. need to get back to polishing my design skills, they need a lot of work... sigh..

 

no blood no foul. may heaven shine a light on you.

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doesn't seem to be the case since most of you guys can't oblige the fact that there is a huge difference between a designer and animator when it pertains to a studio pipeline. let me repeat that, stu-di-o pipe-line. i'm not talking about your 2 month internship at QVC. i'm talking about TDs ADs, and the whole gamut of duties that make up a typical studio pipeline, animators and designers included.

 

No not necessarily, I know loads of highend stuff where the directors also had the role of designer and lead animator. And I´m talking big budget international carcommercials here.

 

 

 

 

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of course i know these noobs aren't likely to profit off of borrowed visuals, but the damage goes beyond their own careers.

 

 

Indeed. I'm just not sure there's much that can be done about it. Just like we can't un-invent the A-bomb, we can't un-tutorial the internet. The cycle is started and I think we have to accept that. To me it seems like a deeper problem than just some tutorials circulating on the internet. It speaks to the impatience of the younger generation growing up on the internet, to a degree. They see something cool and they want to do it NOW, and don't take the time to appreciate the massive efforts of the throngs of very talented people or to learn the basics before putting together their first reel chock full of Andrew Kramer tutorials. As other's have stated before, tt's really not the tutorial-maker's fault in most cases.

 

R

 

Edit: immediately upon posting this I realized it makes me sound like an old codger. I like the internet. It's an endless source of really weird shit.

Edited by RVA8

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No not necessarily, I know loads of highend stuff where the directors also had the role of designer and lead animator. And I´m talking big budget international carcommercials here.

 

please read the entire thread to grasp the context of my comments before posting asinine responses.

 

we all know directors are designers. and yes sometimes designers animate too. does that make an animator a designer by definition?

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please read the entire thread to grasp the context of my comments before posting asinine responses.

 

we all know directors are designers. and yes sometimes designers animate too. does that make an animator a designer by definition?

 

No, but a lot of great motion designers are also great animators. And it goes the otherway around, please give me a good example of fantastic animation with really poor design?

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This thread has totally gotten out of hand and can go on forever. Why argue about it just don't go to the site plain and simple. To each his own if people find his site valuable and can apply it to whatever they do then more power to them. I don't like what the guy is doing either but it doesn't effect my life in any way I just don't go to his site plus aren't his tuts like a hour long I can think of way better ways to use my time like meditate or go to the gym. Don't start insulting other artist though it seems like everyone knows everyone and reputations do get out just focus on your craft and make that money you'll be aight.

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crap, i teach and talk, this doesnt look promising...

 

edit: just watched nicks livecast. Really great stuff. Anyone bitching about nick, should go watch the first 10mins of it.

Edited by vozzz

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those who can't do... teach.

those who can't teach... talk.

 

;)

 

-m

 

Sounds like philosophy being typed out while simultaneously drinking whiskey.

I hope you're not trying to copy Hemingway or Bukowski by mixing writing with booze Monkey.

Stick to whiskey recordings, you invented it remember. ;)

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Mographleaks? Your acting like Nick just sold state secrets to Russia. Heck lets pay some students to say they done some naughty things with him so he's thrown away forever and can never unveil how your made your latest endtag.

 

Welcome to the freaking internet. A magical place where you've given all your information to Mark Zuckerburg and people are letting everyone know how to do your job after you've worked your arse off for years to get to the point where you can "make cool shit". The reason Nick is so popular is that he takes something that students are seeing on tv, in films... the internet and are thinking "how the heck do i do that!". Two weeks later Nick has done a tutorial based on it and has presented it in a way that is easy to follow and "hip" and end result they've learnt 1 of 1000000 ways of making something that is amaazzzing to them. The dude is a brilliant entrepreneur, he knows how things work.

 

I am super surprised at some of the reactions on this post, i've seen a lot of you post some awesome stuff on this forum and on this post have got worked up about something that is so effing trivial.

 

You've just given him a lot more views for when his tutorial comes out.

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I don't feel proprietary about my techniques, only my ideas.

 

Actually is quite the other way around. In terms of copyright, you can't protect an idea, but you can protect a technique.

 

*that was my very useful contribution*

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those who can't do... teach.

those who can't teach... talk.

 

;)

 

-m

Are you saying the college lecturers are the teachers and Nick's the talker, or Nick's the teacher and this forum's users are the talkers?

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