Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
SFBurning

Tremors in the VFX industry

Recommended Posts

the alternative is scream and shout like microdot :D

 

if you have a problem with the industry:

 

 

 

Vozz, the simple fact is that you are now my internet nemesis.

 

So once we have that aside, your Toffler quote speaks more about you than anyone else.

You refuse to learn from prior examples.

The reason I single you out in this argument is not to 'throw feces' at you, but simply because I disagree with your incorrect assumptions about the industry.

 

While you are entitled to these opinions, as part of the community that may be impacted over time by them, I just call you out a bit.

I do this because I don't want our industry to follow the paths of many before it, and I especially don't want it to happen from turning a blind eye.

 

So you should just relax a little and accept that.

 

We should meet in NYC one day and make peace over coffee, preferably not to hot, just in case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the alternative is scream and shout like microdot :D

 

if you have a problem with the industry:

 

 

I don't think microdot is screaming or shouting, merely stating a point. I agree with him and anothername. To think the mograph industry doesn't have parallels to vfx and is untouchable is kind of ignorant. Look at the what's happening already. I've stated this in many threads, less and less motion shops are offering over time, they expect at least a 10 hour day (can anyone tell me where this comes from and why it differs from an employees 8 hour day?) and the worst of it all, the multifaceted artist that gets paid an animators wage. Logically speaking a person who has a good working knowledge of 2d/3d and design should get paid a wage that reflects as such, but rarely do I see shops (in NY where I work) pay that. More and more producers are looking for those freelancers that can do it all. Now, throw in these young and eager newb mographers willing to work for waay less and pull waay more hours and you have a developing problem.

Edited by oeuf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We should meet in NYC one day and make peace over coffee, preferably not to hot, just in case.

 

agreed. But for that you would have to tell me who you are. And from our previous internet scufufle, that doesnt look likely. ;)

 

I will hopefully be in NYC some time in autumn. I miss shake shack burgers too much :(

 

re: prior examples. I started in web dev (flash/html, then came wordpress and india), moved to flyer design for local shops (templates got big), found myself just filling templates and outsourcing the webdev stuff, so moved to archviz, once again found myself managing artists from turkey more than anything coz they could work better and faster than me, and cheaper, eventually i moved into 3D/Td stuff for mograph/animations i do now. So if i find myself just filling out templates and managing outsourcing here, ill probably move onto something else once again. It's the world we live in. You cant just learn one thing and stick to it.

 

 

 

all the other issues have been covered in depth before.

 

-if you can be replaced by an eager newb mographer, you should probably get some new skills.

-if you want to be paid for overtime, charge by the hour, negotiate a higher rate. Stand up for yourself.

 

watch some of nick campbells lectures for a more charismatic delivery of those points :)

 

 

edit: and to not sound like a prick. yes i know its not as easy as just going and getting new skills or just standing up for yourself. But unfortunately thats the way it goes. people who can do those things will move forward, while those who cant will stay where they are. and with the the global "village" the way it is, unions aren't going to help. no matter how much you try to protect it, there will be people who find ways around them. and then the money will go to those people instead of the artists.

Edited by vozzz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny you should mention using cheaper talent from Turkey....

 

As for being replaced by the eager new mographer, you've missed the issue that they're lowering the standards.

And over time pay, you clearly have not worked in NY.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ok so lets say, the new mographers are lowering standards and wages.

 

what is your solution to this? unionise? thats gonna drive companies to outsource even faster.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, that's the discussion at hand, isn't it? What can we learn from the VFX industry, what steps can we take so this doesn't happen to us.

Jumping from industry to industry, as you have so nobly pointed out that you have done, is not a solution. Do I know what the answer is? Nope. But i'm also not the one denying that motion graphics will be unaffected.

 

Maybe i'll go listen to some Nick Campbell...

 

"Insert useles quote here"

 

Oh yeah, this is for your internet rep "+1"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

And over time pay, you clearly have not worked in NY.

Had to weigh in... Isn't that the issue though? That we are constantly being exploited, with the cavalier attitude "it's New York." I've had to change the type of job I work because frankly I'm not willing to be exploited. But that means I can't go work at any big house, and I have to take jobs that unfortunately won't beef up my reel, and won't lead to much new work. I'm still happier than logging mandatory 12 hour days, but it's a shame that I'm unable to work to my potential because I've got a bit of dignity and self worth. It is a very slippery slope when people start acting less like workers and more like indentured servants.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think before we can learn anything from the VFX industry woes, some one has to figure out what went wrong.

No one seems to be on the same page.

Which is it?

 

Outsourcing? Flooded talent pool? Too much overhead? Smaller shops undercutting the big guys? Hollywood not paying what the work is worth? Disappearing government subsidies? All of the above?

 

Does any one have any concrete info at this point, because it all sounds like a bunch of speculation to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had to weigh in... Isn't that the issue though? That we are constantly being exploited, with the cavalier attitude "it's New York." I've had to change the type of job I work because frankly I'm not willing to be exploited. But that means I can't go work at any big house, and I have to take jobs that unfortunately won't beef up my reel, and won't lead to much new work. I'm still happier than logging mandatory 12 hour days, but it's a shame that I'm unable to work to my potential because I've got a bit of dignity and self worth. It is a very slippery slope when people start acting less like workers and more like indentured servants.

Yes, that is the issue, please don't take my quote out of context. In no way do I support that idea that this is ok because it's NY. My quote was in reply to someone that thinks he knows what NY is like.

I too, have relegated myself to mediocre work in exchange for a 40 hour work week and some semblance of sanity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am in complete agreement with Oeuf about OT.

 

Look, I get the whole 'young kids comin up gonna do your job, blah blah bullshit'

That shit usually comes from young kids, young, dumb and full of motion gfx.

 

The point is that many many vfx guys NEVER got OT as well. They get divorced, laid off, replaced just the same as us.

 

Its an important thing to compartmentalize beating off to some trapcode at 2 am, vs being paid the wage of a working fucking man/woman in America (slash whatever country you're in).

Separate the two, don't be a damn noob.

 

Honestly, the inane rhetoric that usually comes from these discussions is just that and nothing more.

Somehow we've managed to seclude and compartmentalize this little island of commercial art into some 'special' thing,

untouchable by market forces, and 'given to special circumstance' when issues like worker's right, OT etc come up.

 

All that does is put a target on your back for the producers, who smell a mark from a mile away.

It's 'show-biz, not show-friend' as the quote goes, and it sure as hell aint 'show-art'

 

At the end of the day, creativity included, this is just a craft, made by craftsmen*

Whether it's an 8 or 10 hour day, we all deserve and need to fight for a working wage, with overtime.

Your day rate should not be considered 'an excessive luxury' and be reason for waiving OT.

 

 

 

*(don't flame me with PC crap - sometimes language supercedes sensitivity)

Edited by microdot

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I actually forgot one thing too.

 

There are many of you that work form home, or travel abroad, on special projects, for special clients.

Whether it's directing, designing, animating, producing, etc. You work for a rate or a flat fee, and create artistic commercial or non-commercial jobs, under a set of specific circumstances.

 

YOU ARE NOT THE VOICE OF OUR INDUSTRY . . .

 

. . . when it comes to matters of wage OT, workers rights etc.

Don't weigh in with your cushy set of circumstances and compare. There is no comparison.

 

I'm speaking above about freelancers on site, in a pipeline, on jobs, with onsite producers.

I can smell it comin, like shit on my shoe from the same walk in the same park, and I'm nipping it in the bud.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hollywood not paying what the work is worth?

I think there can be a lot of speculation on many of the points but to me this is one indisputable fact and lot of the problems flow from there. Assuming that the top VFX shops are not horribly mismanaged, the fact that they are going bankrupt means what hollywood is paying them is not covering their overhead and leaving enough for a profit. Who's fault this is, can be debated but to me anyways a good starting point would be for everyone to say what's a sustainable business model longterm for everyone (my personal speculation is it involves getting rid of fixed bids).

 

Hollywood and Mograph are also shooting themselves in the foot longterm if they can't figure out a sustainable model that works for everyone. It seems like both industries function on a go like a maniac until you go broke or burnout and then get the fuck out. If all the good business people and older more experienced people get out because it just simply isn't a good business anymore this will be bad for everyone.

 

I remember reading Harry Frank's post about leaving freelance and moving to Red Giant that hit home a lot for me as someone who is getting further and further on the other side of 30. That to me is a lot of what's wrong with things from an artists side of things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@microdot Staff here. No overtime, full stop. Although time in lieu is offered as a replacement. Most people who rack up 20-30 days worth of days off never get close to taking all that holiday.

 

@anothername I watch a lot of people where I work pulling long, long hours and sometimes I'm jealous because they have no responsibilities and can throw their life away for a client with 0 patience. Then I smack myself in the face and thank god I get home at a reasonable time so I can see my wife and put my kids to bed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

http://www.wired.com/underwire/2013/03/oscars-vfx-protest/

I think the oscars cut-off was his own fault though. Everyone knows that time is limited and if he really wanted to make a vfx statement, read off the list of family names as quickly as possible (or even skip it) then get to the statement. Although getting cut off may have brought more attention to the debate altogether, who knows.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah, that article is definitely where I think most of us need to be looking.

 

super, I agree. That guy had a chance to touch on it early and set the spark. Definitely get the need to thank the bosses and the fam.

But damn, how about a lil prep? And since that was the first we heard JAWS it seemed almost like a custom crafted diss at first ha.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I can smell it comin, like shit on my shoe from the same walk in the same park, and I'm nipping it in the bud.

 

 

Hahaha. So true. That's a really good analogy. I'm having the seem gut reactions too. It's one of those things I know I'll find it when i get home to take off my shoes. But I'm too busy walking to stop and check my shoes in the rush of things.

 

Microdot, fear not you are def not imagining.

Edited by BoArlander

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Definitely.

 

Producers serve themselves, as it should be.

In the worst cases, they're the ones actually responsible for a job being behind schedule, or just plain fucked, and then you pick up the pieces for no extra pay.

 

Something's gotta give.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup. Something's gotta give. I feel I deserve a tiny bit more respect in the process and I'm not asking for much.

 

We need to stop allowing producers to bully us into not asking questions. Putting us on hold and not letting us know what's going on. ;)

 

 

1) My Specific Role? Design only? Animation too? Am I going to be the lead designer or 2nd fiddle?

 

2) Who is the client and where is this airing/displayed?

 

3) Brief description of deliverables (is this going to be one of those nightmare 5000x5000 pixel renders?)

4) What is the status of the job on the studio end?

i.e. They sign contract yet? Or still at pitch phase? Helps me know how much to gamble with turning down other jobs. Not shackled to imaginary projects.

 

By nature no one likes getting “challenged” by a nerd, they feel doesn't deserve rights.

Edited by BoArlander

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Somewhat related, most people (in most industries), and with most i mean 90%+, are not paying attention to what is soon coming: automation in the service sector including anything creative. If you think this wil not happen with things like design you are sadly mistaken.

 

We are at the brink of generated content with even language & the visual arts becoming a cheap commodity. If this sounds overly Kurzweilian ask yourself the question: what am i doing right now on a daily basis that took crazy time & expertise only a decade ago? Outsourcing is a precursor to automation, this development has delivered enormous wealth but is also at the source of a lot of economic & social trouble.

 

I've seen & read some stuff and some actual results of this and it is deeply troubling.

Edited by parallax

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whilst I agree with the majority, I also see certain design as 'unique' and not something that can be outsourced entirely. You cant outsource an original picasso. If the design is a group effort, then I can understand since there are many 'chefs'. Whereas if a client wants something that YOU provide/create, it is a reflection of your individual personality which cant be created without you.

 

That is, if the client sees that value.

 

 

So now that I think about it, being in a 'director' position would be the ideal position that would fit in the above.

 

</.02>

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Somewhat related, most people (in most industries), and with most i mean 90%+, are not paying attention to what is soon coming: automation in the service sector including anything creative. If you think this wil not happen with things like design you are sadly mistaken.

 

We are at the brink of generated content with even language & the visual arts becoming a cheap commodity. If this sounds overly Kurzweilian ask yourself the question: what am i doing right now on a daily basis that took crazy time & expertise only a decade ago? Outsourcing is a precursor to automation, this development has delivered enormous wealth but is also at the source of a lot of economic & social trouble.

 

I've seen & read some stuff and some actual results of this and it is deeply troubling.

 

I think some of this is kinda already happening and it has been. I don't want to sound like I am oversimplifying things, but sites like http://animoto.com/ along with all of these AE template sites everywhere it has to sort of worry a few in the future. The accessibility of all this stuff and as it evolves will start to make it difficult for clients to pay more. Who hires a Photographer for most stuff? Also the prices... most projects on sites like videohive are like $20, I saw another site that they let you download every template on their site for like $29 and I got to say most of these are not shit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Whilst I agree with the majority, I also see certain design as 'unique' and not something that can be outsourced entirely. You cant outsource an original picasso. If the design is a group effort, then I can understand since there are many 'chefs'. Whereas if a client wants something that YOU provide/create, it is a reflection of your individual personality which cant be created without you.

 

That is, if the client sees that value.

 

 

So now that I think about it, being in a 'director' position would be the ideal position that would fit in the above.

 

</.02>

 

 

When, if ever, has a client seen the value? More often then not, clients are actually asking to copy a certain style rather than going to the source of said style.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...