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pamunoz

HELP! Cinema 4D vs 3DSMAX

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Hi there,

 

So I'm asking to buy Cinema 4D. It was approved but when my software request was presented to our IT guy, this is what he said to us. NOTE... I changed the names to protect peoples identity.

 

I also have 3DSMAX background but I've been told it's more used for architecture these days and that Cinema 4D is the tool motion graphics people use most often because it's easy to learn and works well with After Effects. I think the Mograph and cloner tools certainly look appealing too.

 

I have a meeting at 11am with this guy to argue why Cinema 4D is better but I'm new to the software so I could sure use some of your feedback as to why I should buy Cinema 4D instead of 3DSMAX... (for broadcast use). Or... is he right and I'm wrong?

 

Here's his email (names are different to protect confidentiality):

 

 

 

 

 

Frank,

 

I have to discuss this further, when you get to 3d software your are entering into a new realm.

 

Some things need to be considered:

 

- the hardware that this runs on (will it be enough horse power to render 3d scenes, if you think after effects is slow to render wait until you have to wait 7 hours for a 30 second clip.

- if the hardware above isn't sufficient enough to render in a reasonable time then we are looking at a render farm. Which is an expensive hardware solution.

- will he be the only user? Want to consider other channels wanting it, so is this our standard moving forward? There are programs like 3d studio max, Maya (which I like and have at home), etc.

- what do we want to do with this software and what makes it stand out, other than the cheaper price, which sometimes tells me something.

 

I don't want to put the breaks on this and I understand how 3d could benefit cottage life but we are running short and some areas are over in capital.

 

Let me know when you are available,

BILLY BOB

I.T. Manager

 

 

Here's my position right now:

1) we are using HP X400 workstations with 12GB of ram, Windows 7 64bit Xenon CPU's clocking at 3.33GHz (I see 12 cores on Task Manager), our graphics card isn't fantastic but it's not low-end (NVIDIA Quadro 2000). I have created simple animations on my laptop with pretty half these specs fine, so my guess is that this is not a fantastic perfect workstation but it's certainly powerful and capable of running Cinema 4D.

2) Render takes longer that's a given, but a render farm is overkill and not necessary for what we're doing in house which is mostly 3D text, maybe a flying 3D logo or iPhone, simple stuff like that. We're not making Pixar grade stuff here.

3) 3DSMAX is powerful, but expensive and not as intuitive and easy to learn. It's more geared towards architecture and maybe video games? For TV graphics, and to learn quick, I'd say Cinema 4D is right for us?

 

So please help. I am looking for any input that you can share to ensure I get Cinema 4D and not 3DSMAX, which I think is wrong for our needs. Thank you for your time!!

 

Cheers,

 

Patricio

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Good news is you are on windows so you can cheaply and easily upgrade that graphics card and get more ram. AE is slow because you are probably running 1 gig per core which is like dumping water into a Maserati and wondering why its not moving.

 

The fact that he is commenting on the cheaper price and does not already know the answer to the question shows that he knows nothing and dabbles with his cracked version of Maya at home because he's an "IT" guy. If he knew what he was doing he would know that those machines are plenty to run and render C4D, just build it into your structure. It also has the easiest to use and set up network render so if you have more than one workstation you already have a render farm.

 

The cheaper price thing is just plain stupid. Show the demo reel from Maxon. It is a tool like any other and while maybe more tailored to the broadcast industry, it can do whatever you want with it.

 

Overall ease of use, rendering and integration with After Effects I personally think has made C4D the standard for motion graphics. Good luck

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Thanks for your feedback!

 

I just had a meeting with him and some other tech people and presented the facts as I saw it. I'll admit, I was surprised at how easy it was for me to press for Cinema 4D over Maya/3DSMAX. I have been schooled in 3DSMAX so I know that software better than Cinema 4D so this was a decision I made based mostly on the facts on paper rather than from personal experience.

 

So good news, we're proceeding with the purchase of Cinema 4D. It'll probably just be the Broadcast version but it's our first time diving into the world of 3D so I guess they want to start at the shallow end and see how things go.

 

Cheers,

 

Patricio

Edited by pamunoz

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wooh!

 

congratulations.

 

im going to go ahead and plug my tutorials: http://ace5education.com

 

scroll to the bottom. There are some quick intro tutorials. (man on a box and jumping lamp). They should get you up to speed in c4d quickly. especially if you know another 3d package.

 

Good luck!

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IT shouldn't be telling you what tools to you should use. That's like telling them your thoughts on what servers they should use.

 

100% agreement. It's the Achilles heel of large companies that these guys can superficially sound like experts on areas they know very little about.

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Beeing both, a CINEMA 4D user and IT professional for many years i can only say that it is often advisable to ask your IT people when it comes to buying decisions. Yes, they shouldn't not concern themself with the specific needs that aren't their expertise, but from what i have seen asked and proposed to buy on many forums is sometimes disillusional for an IT person. Many don't have the slightest idea about how to evaluate the performance of specific components for the tasks at hand, this starts with ignorance regarding what memory actualy means, the comparison of vastly different CPUs on clockrate alone, complete ignorance regarding network bandwidht .... you name it.

The more money someone wants to spend and the more important the system is for the success of your project/business, the more you should bring experts into the decision making process. Keep in mind, they are (usually) as much experts in their area as you are in yours.

Cheers

Björn

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The usual problem is knowing where you yourself are not an expert, this problem is widely spread in germany as well, so don't bother ;)

 

I worked in IT myself for several years. It's what I originally trained as. I'm in New Zealand. It's not exactly a third world nation but it's nowhere near Germany in terms of technical ability. There are some very cleaver people here but they tend to form into isolated groups.

 

Here's a real world example of a "state of the art graphics workstation" from our technical experts. A single core CPU with 256mb of RAM.

 

That's the first computer I was given to make graphics for a nationally broadcast news service. When I complained I was firmly told to stop making excuses and get on with the job.

 

I wish I was joking :wacko:

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Here's a real world example of a "state of the art graphics workstation" from our technical experts. A single core CPU with 256mb of RAM.

 

That's the first computer I was given to make graphics for a nationally broadcast news service. When I complained I was firmly told to stop making excuses and get on with the job.

 

I wish I was joking :wacko:

 

In 1998 i might have recommended it as well ;)

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The problem you talk about is called the Kruger-Dunning effect. The proper response to that is either: "sure, every render takes 7 hours" or "STFU".

 

Incompentence disguised as expertise is ruining everything.

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The problem you talk about is called the Kruger-Dunning effect. The proper response to that is either: "sure, every render takes 7 hours" or "STFU".

 

Incompentence disguised as expertise is ruining everything.

Interesting. Didn't know about the Kruger-Dunning effect and read up on it. (now i'm an expert, ha).

Seems to me that alot of producers suffer from this.

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About a year ago I had to make the same argument (3DS vx C4D), and we switched... I'm very glad we did. There are so many more resources - plugins, tutorials, advice from the motion graphics community and it was much easier for me to use - I had learnt the basics of 3DS max and it was like a breath of fresh air to switch to C4D.

 

Anyway, the real reason I'm posting this is in response to the long render times/ render farm issue raised... I recently set up Net Render on all of their machines and it's like having a little render farm with no additional costs. If you have C4D studio, you can install a Net Render server on one machine, and the Client software on all other machines on your network (whether it has C4D or not, mac or PC) and they will all happliy chug away rendering 3D frames that have been allocated, much like a farm. It was perfect for our small studio setup, it didn't slow the machines down too much and if it did, the user could simply close the client software and frames would be reassigned. I strongly recommend you look into this. If you have the broadcast version you can have 3 client machines.

 

To be fair to the IT guy, he was just asking the sensible (ish) questions that needed to be asked if he had no clue about the software...

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Quick update: Our company is setting up another meeting on Monday to discuss Cinema 4D vs other 3D solutions for use by us promotions producers. I'll be honest, it's frustrating to be told several times that it's confirmed only to be told that it is not and that another meeting about this is required. It's tiresome to be honest. lol!

 

The biggest draw for Cinema 4D is the fact that there seems to be such a healthy mograph community surrounding it. And... I have started playing with it, and I'm actually loving it so far. It's so user friendly!

 

So ya, I guess I'm going to have to present my case for Cinema 4D one last time on Monday... So if you've got a good story for Cinema 4D that you think can help me to convince my department (promo producers) that this is the best solution for us, please share! :-)

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i love c4d so much. it's by far the easiest 3d package for me to get a grasp of. and yes, the community is amazing.

 

if worse comes to worse, i would set up a bunch of browser tabs with vimeo links to as much cool c4d created projects and reels as possible. or make a power point presentation. allow the final productions to sell the software rather than the technical aspects. make them see what is possible and that the final outcome could be done with other packages but no where near as easily due to the mograph module and a never ending plethora of plugins.

 

here are some breakdowns i liked on vimeo:

https://vimeo.com/61535233

https://vimeo.com/60692909

https://vimeo.com/60548918

https://vimeo.com/59658464

https://vimeo.com/58389798

https://vimeo.com/33052778

 

c4d influences/inspiration:

http://www.beeple-crap.com

http://www.greyscalegorilla.com

http://www.thepixellab.net/blog

 

etc etc etc!

 

even you said it, the c4d community online is phenomenal! you won't find that for any other package (at least i don't think you will). go in there monday with guns a blazing. c4d is AWESOME!

Edited by thekinginyellow

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The most simple explanation I have for using C4D over anything else is that C4D is built around the idea that a single generalist artist will see the whole process through, from beginning to end.

 

Maya, Max, etc are designed more for use in large-scale pipelines, where there are specialists for each aspect.

Edited by AromaKat

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Not much different than what Aromakat said but C4D is built for motion graphics in a way that those other programs are not. In terms of speed and ease of use for the kind of stuff you will need to do for station promos day in and day out it can't be beat.

 

If I had to make the argument I would point out that I know some studios that have extensive maya, 3DS, or XSI pipelines for character Games and FX work but still choose to use C4D for their mograph projects.

 

In that dudes email he doesn't really seem to have any arguments for 3DS other than he has it at home....

Edited by anothername

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yeh that makes sense, too. i work with like 5 other guys and they are all 3dsmax (i'm c4d). they all model, but for the most part they each have their strengths and stick with it. one animates, one textures, etc etc all for one project. if i were given a project i would most likely and have completed the whole thing single handed with c4d from start to finish.

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So all of this talk and this meeting is about one copy of a piece of software on one specific machine? Sounds like they should be having meetings on slimming down IT guy hours or wasted time in pointless meetings. Buy the freaking C4D license and get back to work. Geesh.

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So all of this talk and this meeting is about one copy of a piece of software on one specific machine? Sounds like they should be having meetings on slimming down IT guy hours or wasted time in pointless meetings. Buy the freaking C4D license and get back to work. Geesh.

*cough* this *cough*

 

The IT guy isn't the one doing the creative work is he? I mean, his position should be to support machine and networks so you, the creative, can do what you need to do. </short>

 

 

 

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I think you have a very strong case going into this meeting, you will have not only the excellent links provided by thekinginyellow, but you can address each individual concern raised by the IT guy:

 

I have to discuss this further, when you get to 3d software your are entering into a new realm.

 

The interface and basic principles are very similar in 3D software, with the added bonus that C4D is more user-friendly and better supported in the motion graphics community (tutorials, plugins, advice etc). You may need a little time to fully get to grips, but the fact that you have tried it and found it easy to use is a good sign.

 

Some things need to be considered:

 

- the hardware that this runs on (will it be enough horse power to render 3d scenes, if you think after effects is slow to render wait until you have to wait 7 hours for a 30 second clip.

 

True for any 3D software, I guess he may be worried about additional hardware costs, he probably doesn't want you to be coming to him in a few months time asking for expensive upgrades and new machines. From the specs you have given they seem OK but could be better, but they are more than enough to keep you working efficiently. How many workstations do you have there, and how many licenses will be needed now/in the forseeable future? If you address this right now with them and plan ahead it will show that you are on their side when it comes to the financial side of things and give them a better idea of what to expect.

 

- if the hardware above isn't sufficient enough to render in a reasonable time then we are looking at a render farm. Which is an expensive hardware solution.

 

It'd be good to mention the Net Render option that can use on machines that don't have C4D (read render farm-lite with no extra cost), as long as you have a few other good machines there.

 

- will he be the only user? Want to consider other channels wanting it, so is this our standard moving forward? There are programs like 3d studio max, Maya (which I like and have at home), etc.

 

Many other studios use C4D, I've noticed it's pretty much the standard nowadays, especially for freelancers and companies working with freelancers. So any collaboration/ supplied 3D files will be by far the easiest with C4D

 

- what do we want to do with this software and what makes it stand out, other than the cheaper price, which sometimes tells me something.

 

In my eyes the cheaper price is only a bonus, you have almost the whole mograph community as a reference as to why this software is good. There are drawbacks, they are few and far between in my workflow but the main reason studios would opt for maya or 3DS over C4D is, as mentioned, if they are working on huge productions with complicated pipelines and need absolute control and very specific features that in likelyhood you are not going to need. My friend works in such a place as a pipeline TD, working on Maya and much prefers the control he has for managing the pipeline (although he does have very little C4D experience to compare).

 

I don't want to put the breaks on this and I understand how 3d could benefit cottage life but we are running short and some areas are over in capital.

 

In short, in order for the company to remain competitive they do need to offer 3D capabilities and making the move will pay off eventually in the long run. Although it appears that the decision has been made to move to 3D, it's just a question of the software to use.

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