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Aaron Scott

Adobe programs going Creative Cloud-only -- new AE is "AE CC"

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What I don't understand is everyone claiming "they can't afford the rent". Didn't you pay like $1,600 US for a production suite? That is almost 3 years of rent. Why is it more expensive?

 

-gl

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The fundamental problem here is we will not own the software with which we make our living. Read that line again. Consider it's implications. We will not control it from our end but Adobe will. You will NOT own the means by which you put bread on the table, for the first time ever (at least for mographers). This isn't some trivial change in license T&C's or a re-bundling of products, but a ground-up re-configuration of the way we work and the control we have over our own livelihoods.

 

It's not a matter of affording the monthly payments, although the fact that you HAVE to pay every month of have no access to the software will affect those sole traders who occasionally experience cash flow issues (difficult for the suits to believe that happens but it does). Do you want your business to be only switched on if the Adobe server is operating correctly, or your machine or install has some unfathomable glitch that means the connection software doesn't work?

 

I have to say, the more I think about it, the worse it seems. It's the principle of not owning the means of production for the first time ever that doesn't sound like progress, but reeks of corporate control of the industry to individual level.

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So is this something where it'll have to ping a server and enable a license for you? What happens if you don't have internet (or its temporarily down) at your workstation? Are you screwed until you find an internet connection?

 

AFAIK the short answer is no. Here's more… http://forums.adobe.com/message/4758838#4758838

 

If the cineware feature is gonna be only available on AE CC, I quit.

 

Unfortunately as of now none of the new features (coming in June with the new CC versions) will come to CS6.

 

 

People also already have started petitioning… Petition | Adobe Systems Incorporated: Eliminate the mandatory "creative cloud" subscription model. | Change.org

Also interesting… Adobe is killing Creative Suite; here’s why | VentureBeat

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DONT BELIEVE THEM! BUY THEM UP WHILE YOU CAN!!!

 

Its all lies i tell you! It'll be like the new gold standard. or the new crack cocaine, where studios will be desprately clamering to find someone who has an offline version of AE.

 

The AEPOCALYPSE IS COMING!

Hahahaha! Aepocalypse! Vozzz I may have to bump up that VFX thread again. - Reaper

 

:D

Edited by BoArlander

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There's some interesting points in this one, some pure marketing comedy too. I like the bit where the guy gets all 'frank', and says how they got left behind when HTML5 came out because the CS cycle was too slow... neglecting to mention that Adobe were 'frankly' ramming Flash into everything and anything they could in an effort to displace HTML5.

 

But the good stuff, and where I actually go along with this, is when he mentions smaller, focussed micro-apps, rather than monster do-it-all bloat apps. I've been getting into a ton of 3D utility apps, starting with modo but then topogun, sculpting apps etc and the agility and focus this gives me is definitely helping. Having that granular approach in 'CC' (*nice initials* ;-) is interesting, especially if they're rolled out as included in the bundle.

 

The funny ending though is where he says how all the 'cranky customers' got twisted up about how CreativeSuites were bundled, but now 'we all love it' and the added value they give. Ummm... sure about that are we?

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Hahahaha! Aepocalypse! Vozzz I may have to bump up that VFX thread again. - Reaper

 

:D

 

I was hoping someone would pick up on that :))

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The software can be activated on two computers at once. Deactivating on a computer so that you can activate on another is a relatively simple process.

 

great to know, especially since I'm sure many of us use a laptop in addition to a desktop.

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Another thing that happens with contract subs, aside from not actually 'owning' the phys product or virtual license . . .

 

I think a lot of people would generally skip a version on a paid update, either because they couldn't afford it, or the update wasn't anything special worth updating to, usually the latter or both.

 

You could essentially use the same version for 2-3 years and get the majority of your work done and eventually upgrade comfortably when it was worth your while.

 

Now, you can do this with 6, but eventually that will end, and when you finally DO upg, you will become a battery in the matrix, and now locked into a contract (unless you go monthly), forced to pay annually no matter what.

 

Even sharecroppers sometimes had the opportunity to own the land they worked.

 

In the end, its genius, because AHObe can predict with much more accuracy their QTRly earnings and shareholders can visit more strip clubs.

 

AmURka $$ !

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

Time to learn Nuke

Edited by microdot

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Oh, well now! Can you fix my issue yourself, then? Case numbers

 

0209558750

0209559535

 

Not the first time mentioning this here... I have been getting double-charged ever since the creative cloud came about. I used to have the cs5.5 subscription, which apparently I am still being charged for. Its been over a year now.... Even the person you forwarded me over to never responded to my case. The guys in India keep hanging up on me, disconnecting chat, etc when they start to get confused. Adobe support is utterly useless.

 

But I guess since you are the man and can now do corrections yourself.... thanks in advance!

 

I was offering to correct some bad information by informing the Customer Service agent who was misinforming people. Your issue is different, since I actually need to get them to _do_ something. I will try, though.

 

 

 

The question I have, though, is this: If a software package is EOLed, like fireworks just was, what's the game plan? And I mean... Guaranteed game plan... In black and white. Lets say, theoretically, the industry moves over to something else, thus making Adobe see no further need for AE and EOLing it after a few version updates since. Then, I need to pull an old project from 4 or 5 years prior to the latest update, but there is no way to download the software from to open the file.

 

 

Fireworks is a good example. It is still being made available through Creative Cloud, and it will be indefinitely; there is no intention to remove it. The version that will be available for download isn't getting any new features, but it will still be there for download years from now. Same with any other application for which development is stopped.

 

More generally, we are keeping old versions of all applications (CS6 onward) available through Creative Cloud so that five years from now you'll still be able to go back and grab, say, After Effects CS6 if you need to.

 

You will be able to at any time choose which version(s) to download and install.

 

 

 

If I purchase something that is broken, I expect it to be fixed. Correct me if I am wrong.. but in the world of software development at Adobe's scale, isn't the cost of ongoing bug fixes supposed to be a part figuring out the price??

 

Yes. But you've probably noticed that many of the people on this thread explicitly don't trust us to do the right thing. I'm explaining that with the subscription model, you don't need to rely on trust for this; you can expect us to do the right thing because the very greed that we're being accused of would motivate us to do it. I.e.: With perpetually licensed software, you had to trust us to do the right thing and provide those bug-fix updates, because once we have your money, there's no incentive for us to improve the thing that you've already paid for; but with subscription software, we need to give you a reason every month to keep paying us and not walk away. Under the subscription model, if we don't fix a bug that is interfering with your work, then you can stop paying us that month and move on.

 

Now, in truth, we on the After Effects team (and the Premiere Pro team, and the others that I work with) do the right thing for the right reasons. We provide bug-fix updates for one version even after the new version is out. We do this because we want to make good and useful software. But even for us, the fact that you can stop paying at any time motivates us even more to make sure that you are satisfied every month.

Edited by Todd Kopriva

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I really just don't think this is gonna fly with the mograph community, and hopefully some of the things said in this thread will be taken to heart, Todd. We all agre that this relationship is mutually beneficial, but what i think you're seeing is a negative reaction based on choices being taken away from us.

 

At the very, very least, there should be a way to opt out of the subscription model at some point and own a license without fear of never being able to open old projects again.

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Yes. But you've probably noticed that many of the people on this thread explicitly don't trust us to do the right thing. I'm explaining that with the subscription model, you don't need to rely on trust for this; you can expect us to do the right thing because the very greed that we're being accused of would motivate us to do it. I.e.: With perpetually licensed software, you had to trust us to do the right thing and provide those bug-fix updates, because once we have your money, there's no incentive for us to improve the thing that you've already paid for; but with subscription software, we need to give you a reason every month to keep paying us and not walk away. Under the subscription model, if we don't fix a bug that is interfering with your work, then you can stop paying us that month and move on.

I think what most people are concerned about, myself included, is that we can't just stop paying for that month and 'walk away'. If you stop paying, you lose access to the app altogether, so we're being strong armed into continuously paying no matter what bug fixes are made or not made. It's not really incentive based anymore, it's necessity based.

 

For example, someone is currently owns CS 5.5, signs up for CC, does some stuff for a few months or a year and say the development is too slow or Adobe jacks up the price and doesn't want to continue paying for CC. Suddenly this person has a bunch of project files that are in the newest version that they no longer can use. When client X comes back wanting some text change what is that person supposed to do since they can't open it in CS5.5? That's right, they are forced to sign up for CC again. I think that is where most people have a problem with this model.

 

If Adobe has some sort of 'lease to own' model in which after the year this person was using it, they could just pay the difference that they've already invested (exit strategy) I think Adobe would be having much less backlash from this news. It would also give people some piece of mind if they decided to jack up monthy prices (although I guess they could jack prices for the exit strategy as well, which sucks too).

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Under the subscription model, if we don't fix a bug that is interfering with your work, then you can stop paying us that month and move on.

 

But we can't . . . if we stop paying you we stop earning money as you'll stop our software working. Where can we move on to? Etch-a-sketch?

 

Todd, this is NOT personal to your good self and it is very, very important to understand that. But be aware, to those of us that have spent thousands on Adobe software and now have nothing to show for it except a load of outdated apps on our drives and boxes on the shelves then this feels like a kick in the balls to us, especially sole traders who do sometimes struggle to find all the money to keep up with upgrades etc. Remember - we pay full whack, it's our larger competitors that get discounted software. Now, after all these years if I miss a payment for whatever reason then I can't earn as my software will be switched off, and I have never been in this position, and I do not like being put in this position by a supplier. I was mistaken to take up the Cloud, and this feels like a mistake too.

 

I've already had to ask a stroppy Adobe sales rep why he was talking to me in such a disdainful and slightly insulting manner, and his reply was that he's getting the same questions again and again, which means either a) Adobe is not communicating the message effectively, or B) people don't like the message (I was seeing if I could get a discount on buying CS6 [i can't] as when this is all implemented my latest perpetual version will be 5.5 - fool that I was for taking this up!). I felt sorry for the guy, the front line take the flak.

 

As for trust, again this is most emphatically not personal to you. However, trust has to be earned and Adobe's somewhat defensive attitude to this launch is the result of several years frustration from us, the 'cranky' end users. A monopoly is never, ever a good thing.

 

*Edited for rogue emoticon.

Edited by zook

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Suddenly this person has a bunch of project files that are in the newest version that they no longer can use. When client X comes back wanting some text change what is that person supposed to do since they can't open it in CS5.5?

 

There is a command in After Effects CC to save a project as a copy that After Effects CS6 can open. We intend to have that command in all versions going forward. (Of course, some features won't save backward, since they weren't in CS6.)

 

Also, you could just resubscribe for the single application for a month. Or you could use the free 30-day trial version.

 

There are many options for using you project files that don't include keeping your subscription going forever.

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There is a command in After Effects CC to save a project as a copy that After Effects CS6 can open. We intend to have that command in all versions going forward. (Of course, some features won't save backward, since they weren't in CS6.)

 

Also, you could just resubscribe for the single application for a month. Or you could use the free 30-day trial version.

I do appreciate that they are changing it from only one version of backward compatibility to a more permanent CS6 'save as'.

 

While true those workarounds (although a hassle, especially for a company with multiple clients, so you'd might need multiple times doing it) would work... well unless you were using CS7+ features then you'd be stuck, I think the bigger issue remains that people aren't able to continue to work on the version they did the project in without the subscription. Power is definitely being shifted away from end users. Whether that trade off is worth the benefits of CC is obviously up for debate as we've seen from this thread.

Edited by superegophobia

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I for one love The Cloud. I'm happy not to buy physical boxes any longer or to wait long periods for updates. I like knowing that I have every Adobe app on the planet on my comp ALWAYS current and ready to use. IF one doesn't like paying monthly, then why not take the $1600 you were going to buy a box set with and pay for the next few years upfront? By that time the box set you would have bought will be outdated by a few box sets and be worthless anyways, however you wouldn't have had to pay upgrade prices between box sets.

 

Maybe I have my math wrong, but for me, this is a win/win. Just like Spotify™. I don't have any interest in owning my songs. I just want to rent a resource to have EVERYTHING at my fingertips all the time.

 

I wonder if there is a psychological phenomena happening where the Cloud disrupts a human's needs to own and hoard things making them not feel ownership of it. In the same way young film makers seem obsessed with having to own their own camera gear instead of just renting it for each job like most productions do. Just a thought.

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I wonder if there is a psychological phenomena happening where the Cloud disrupts

I kinda think that's the thing. On a philosophical level I really don't like this move. But if it all works as advertised (being able to have multiple versions running, infrequent need to ping the server) on a practical level I can't see it having a huge impact on my work.

 

I wish there was more competition which is really the only answer to the lack of choice that everyone is complaining about, on the other hand it's a double edged sword. Yeah adobe might jack up the rates but the rates go up for everyone equally so everyone is in the same boat and the adobe tax gets passed on to clients. Same thing if all of a sudden their license server goes bananas locking everyone out well we can all go on holiday cuz the whole industry gets shut down.

 

I seriously hope maybe this opens the door a crack for some competition, when you look at this move it's pretty clear that right now Adobe's only real competition is piracy (at least with photoshop, illustrator and After Effects) until that changes it's going to be more moves in this direction.

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I for one love The Cloud. I'm happy not to buy physical boxes any longer or to wait long periods for updates. I like knowing that I have every Adobe app on the planet on my comp ALWAYS current and ready to use. IF one doesn't like paying monthly, then why not take the $1600 you were going to buy a box set with and pay for the next few years upfront? By that time the box set you would have bought will be outdated by a few box sets and be worthless anyways, however you wouldn't have had to pay upgrade prices between box sets.

 

Maybe I have my math wrong, but for me, this is a win/win. Just like Spotify™. I don't have any interest in owning my songs. I just want to rent a resource to have EVERYTHING at my fingertips all the time.

 

I wonder if there is a psychological phenomena happening where the Cloud disrupts a human's needs to own and hoard things making them not feel ownership of it. In the same way young film makers seem obsessed with having to own their own camera gear instead of just renting it for each job like most productions do. Just a thought.

 

C$mith I'm in total agreement with you, even the camera gear part. I love the price and it's a great product. And piracy is hurting their bottom line and this is just their way of trying to make it winwin.

 

But hard to find another rental house when there's only one in town. And shoots are more of a preplanned thing than mograph. We know our clients. This is a little bit different. We “shoot” mograph on a daily/hourly basis. We're one call away from the next fix or nightmare to troubleshoot. And we have to be ready for those type of calls.

 

One thing I'm concerned about is opening old project files 5 years later. Sounds like a gripe but I've already had this problem with several projects I needed assets from or to rerender the updates. In one case I couldn't really help my client as I'd hoped.

 

Todd says 5 years but....what if Adobe goes under for some reason? Yikes! Now that's unlikely but I wonder!

 

On the other hand piracy is probably really hurting them. And with shops using pirated software to compete with one another, therein lies a big part of the problem. I don't blame Adobe for wanting to make their margins higher. They need to make money. That's what business is. Not philanthropy for piracy. Sadly the few paying customers aren't enough.

 

Now, I'm no programmer but what if there's another OS update 96bit, 128bit OS? Is this in the near future? I wonder if that could have an impact on not being able to roll back a cloud version. Complicated.

Edited by BoArlander

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I for one love The Cloud. I'm happy not to buy physical boxes any longer or to wait long periods for updates. I like knowing that I have every Adobe app on the planet on my comp ALWAYS current and ready to use. IF one doesn't like paying monthly, then why not take the $1600 you were going to buy a box set with and pay for the next few years upfront? By that time the box set you would have bought will be outdated by a few box sets and be worthless anyways, however you wouldn't have had to pay upgrade prices between box sets.

 

Maybe I have my math wrong, but for me, this is a win/win. Just like Spotify™. I don't have any interest in owning my songs. I just want to rent a resource to have EVERYTHING at my fingertips all the time.

 

I wonder if there is a psychological phenomena happening where the Cloud disrupts a human's needs to own and hoard things making them not feel ownership of it. In the same way young film makers seem obsessed with having to own their own camera gear instead of just renting it for each job like most productions do. Just a thought.

 

Except Spotify doesn't have Led Zeppelin :o

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CC won't stop piracy. Flip a few bytes in a licensing library, forge a few TCP responses and you get yourself a working Adobe suite without ever a single packet actually going to Adobe servers. That's how it's always been and unless Adobe requires you to mandatorily encrypt your entire operating system and lock you to a hardware TPM module while at the same time they are the key/ certificate provider, this won't change. It merely keeps the software pirates busy because they need to issue cracks on a monthly basis just as Adobe update their software, but nothing will stop them to download trials or use fake CC subscriptions to figure things out. The old thing from the hedgehog vs. hare fable "I'm already here...". It's a race Adobe can't win. Believing they could would be foolish and naive.

 

Mylenium

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CC won't stop piracy. Flip a few bytes in a licensing library, forge a few TCP responses and you get yourself a working Adobe suite without ever a single packet actually going to Adobe servers. That's how it's always been and unless Adobe requires you to mandatorily encrypt your entire operating system and lock you to a hardware TPM module while at the same time they are the key/ certificate provider, this won't change. It merely keeps the software pirates busy because they need to issue cracks on a monthly basis just as Adobe update their software, but nothing will stop them to download trials or use fake CC subscriptions to figure things out. The old thing from the hedgehog vs. hare fable "I'm already here...". It's a race Adobe can't win. Believing they could would be foolish and naive.

 

Mylenium

Thats whats so concerning about this. That ultimately they could in fact go under or get bought out as a result. Notice Todd is getting mighty quiet.

 

:P

 

- Reaper

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Just like Spotify™. I don't have any interest in owning my songs.

May work for you, but I find it's nice to support artists by buying their CDs, DVDs and swag or going to their concerts/ performances at a fair price instead of letting them starve to death for 0.03 cents a song... And you are still bound to the regional monnopolies of the music publishers and mostly mainstream. Doesn't really solve anything for me...

 

Mylenium

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I was kind of excited to see this new subscription based system. I can see more people that are used to owning copies, being against it. Personally I haven't been able to afford to buy all the Adobe programs before and going to a monthly system is very appealing. Personally I hope others join this system, I'd love to be able to use C4D at home on a subscription as well.

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Thats whats so concerning about this. That ultimately they could in fact go under or get bought out as a result. Notice Todd is getting mighty quiet.

Not really. Even if the ratio of legal vs. pirated was 1 : 10 or so, Adobe would still make a lot of dough... If anything, CC may make less people try pirated software because it makes less sense to risk virus infections with downloads from dark places, which might skew the ratio to 1:9 ;-). Beyond that: Those who don't want to pay anything simply won't pay anything ever, but it should not be any software vendor's top priority to come up with ever new ways to try and kill off illegal use. I'm sure Todd, the AE team or Adobe in general have enough other things to do and put some stema in CS8 and beyond...

 

Mylenium

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May work for you, but I find it's nice to support artists by buying their CDs, DVDs and swag or going to their concerts/ performances at a fair price instead of letting them starve to death for 0.03 cents a song... And you are still bound to the regional monnopolies of the music publishers and mostly mainstream. Doesn't really solve anything for me...

 

Mylenium

 

I don't want to get too far into the Spotify discussion as this is a thread to whine about The Cloud. But artists from what I can tell are fine with the Spotify model as they get paid based on listening habits. That's why many artists are promoting you go to spotify to listen to their album vs buying their songs from iTunes. Meaning they are happy either way.

 

Here is a blurb from the Spotify FAQ:

 

"Spotify pays royalties in relation to an artist's popularity on the service. For example, we will pay out approximately 2% of our gross royalties for an artist whose music represents approximately 2% of what our users stream. A popular song or album can generate far more revenue for an artist over time than it historically would have from upfront unit sales."

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