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Guest Jog_shapes

fair price for a montage?

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Guest Jog_shapes

Hi guys, i was just wondering what's a fair price for designing and animating segments of a show which accumulates to 1minute and 20seconds. Client has offered a rough figure of $600.00. Now i think that is way too cheap. Especially with 3 people working on the project. We're fresh graduates with a past of well done freelance projects for TV. however this is the first time we're doing a TV show montage...please give me some advice on this thanks.

 

Jog.

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Guest firemind

600 bucks does seem laughable (but then, I don't know the client's situation). One thing to consider though if this is a way to get your foot in the door?

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Guest jasfish

It depends on things like market size and how big the audience is.

 

BUT .. $600 for a 1:20 long montage is horrible. That's showing no respect for talent and creativity at all.

 

What's your time worth? What do you normally bill an hour? I can't imagine you'll make money on this.

 

And as for getting your foot in the door, I've rarely seen that work like this. All they know is you did it for $600 before, why won't you do it for $600 now?

 

I know it's tough to turn down jobs/money .. but I think these types of things don't do anybody good. If you want respect, bill at a reasonable rate, otherwise you'll always get sh*t clients.

 

In my experience, the lower your rates, the more hassles you get from penny-pinchers who don't understand the process or why things cost what they do. I'm lucky I get to work with ad agencies (which brings it's own set of challenges) but at least they know what things cost.

 

My 2-cents

 

jasfish

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Guest Jog_shapes

Totally!. Infact, it is an insult to the craft. I totally undestand what you guys mean. firemind, it is laughable but at the same time very saddening. To be honest, i'm not to desperate for the job. It's just that it's TV and i'm quite interested in doing something for a game show. Also it's a pilot. So regarding target market and audience i wouldn't know, would it be wise to request these informations from the client? And is there such thing as a half payment since it's a pilot? They are unsure on whether the show would sell or not, so the other half(another $600) would come if the show sells. But as far as i'm concerned that issue shouldn't even involve me?. I've done a promo which is aired within the asian region. Also i have a string of other jobs waiting for me to attend to. Which are of course different to this. I'm just trying to get as much exposure as i can here but if i'm gonna bust my ass, and not get a fair compensation...not worth it.

 

Well so far i've charged less than 10K for a 3week ---> 4 week job. Working at whatever hour of the day. 2 designers. In comfort. Not a chop chop job. Pricings do differ according to the scale/type of a project don't they? Please help advice on this matter. What would be a reasonable amount, to be a little more specific, my job would include some researching, 3D, illustrations, video compositing and animation.

 

Another thing is, what are some of the things that i should take into consideration besides target audience(adults from 20-->30) and market size(southeast asia by the way).

 

much appreciated.

 

Jog

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Guest jasfish

<<is there such thing as a half payment since it's a pilot?>>

 

We do pitches with ad agencies, and we give them discount rates with the hope that if they get the job, they'll do it with us, but it's never a thing where we get more money if they sell it. If the work is worth $1200 that's what it's worth, not $600 now, and maybe $600 later. Good luck collecting that.

 

<<What would be a reasonable amount, to be a little more specific, my job would include some researching, 3D, illustrations, video compositing and animation>>

 

Depends on so many things, including your level of talent/experience. Someone just starting out might get $25 hour, while others may charge $50 to more than $100 an hour (freelance rates). Depends also on location, where you are. Some places will charge more than others. A big post-house is going to get $200-plus an hour for editing with $400/hour or more for graphics/3D/flame work.

 

I just can't imagine what anyone expects for $600. If someone talented is willing to do the job for that they'll get lucky, but what they deserve is someone's kid taking a DV cam, shooting some shaky footage, and using box wipes to transition between scenes. No professional job should pay that poorly.

 

Now when it comes to pilots, I'm not sure what to tell you. Obviously, they are putting up their own money in the hopes of selling a show, so if it doesn't sell it's all money lost. But IMO, that doesn't give them the excuse to low-ball something like this.

 

Of course I've got a good steady gig so it's easy for me to say this. Someone who's busting his butt to pay the rent, other bills, etc.. may feel a lot differently. It all depends on your situation.

 

HTH,

 

jasfish

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Guest jasfish

BTW, it would be nice to get some other professionals opinions on this as well. This is the type of thing I think a lot of us can benefit from with more talk.

 

I've always felt the more open we are about rates/etc.. the stronger it makes us as designers. It's easier to charge a higher rate if you know that's the going rate as opposed to guessing.

 

Again, my 2-cents.

 

jasfish

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Guest Jog_shapes

Thanks alot Jasfish. I'll keep that in mind. I think it'll be best to do that. I am trying to get as many opinions and advice as i can.

 

Thanks again..

 

Jog.

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Guest yogert909

Yeah I agree with the other guys, $600 is a scam.

 

The only way you should take the job is if you REALLY think these guys are professional, are making a great show, and you will love doing the work even for slave wages... Don't be fooled if they are telling you that such and such big producer is very interested...blah...blah. Most pilots never see the light of day. The only thing you can really count on is if they are cool people, with good ideas and other stuff going on, they might be good contacts for the future.

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Guest Jog_shapes

thanks there yogert. "Most pilots never see the light of day" now there's some good info,hehe. Well to be honest, the exposure would be great. But as i mentioned earlier, at the moment i do have other choices and i wouldn't want to sell myself too cheap. It's just a matter of time.

 

im learning alot.

 

thanks yogert.

 

jog.

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Guest Scorch

I agree with most of what that article says, however I think it is a slightly pessimistic view. Any client worth having will pay whatever you ask (within a range they anticipate) if you're work is excellent and you are professional in your actions.

 

A good client, when faced with two designers, one charging $250/day and the other charging $350/day, won't automatically choose the cheapest, but will choose the best designer. Image is extremely important to nearly all clients, anyone who has worked their way through a 50 page 'Brand Values and Guidelines' etc etc book will realise that! So if a designers' work is sub-standard, their image will also be sub-standard. Only the most inexperienced and naive client would risk their image by choosing on price alone.

 

The majority of jobs on something like elance are small jobs for crappy companies that no one's ever heard of, who wants that on their client list? I can't see the likes of Sony, Nike, Nokia, EA etc going to elance with a project, it's laughable.

 

My advice regarding the original post, don't do it. $600 for 1min20 is clearly ridiculous. Somewhere between $5000-10000 is more realistic for 3 people working on it. As a freelancer myself I would typically quote about $3000 for this amount of work (1-2 weeks I guess), and I'm hardly expensive.

 

I did do a job for a pilot show a while ago, 3 title sequence ideas for $900, on the basis that "if we get the go ahead on the series, it'll be 15 shows with loads more graphics". hmm...it took me 3 months to get the $900 out of them, and they didn't get a series despite "we love the work you did". No amount of compliments made me happy, it was a weak idea for a show anyway. I learnt NEVER to take on work on the promise of "loads more work really soon", "great exposure" etc

 

It rarely works that way. Decent clients know full well that they have to pay the going rate for good work, as with anything. If you do work for cheap rates, you'll get treated like you're desperate, and in such circumstances you probably are!

 

It sounds like you've got the right idea though. Keep at it

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Guest André Leroux

Slightly pessimistic yes. but dead on as far as I'm concerned. The pricing wormhole article reflects exactly what we are experiencing here in Montreal, Canada. I have seen posted job ads for 7 dollars/hour.

 

My 2 cents

 

André

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Guest Scorch

what I'm saying is you shouldn't view someone who charges $7 an hour as your competition because they are bound to be doing sub-standard work, and the client that hires someone for that rate is certainly not worth knowing. Aim for good clients and do good work, and you won't have a problem making good money.

 

I almost view ridiculously cheap designers as an underclass who should simply be ignored, there'll always be someone cheaper. The main aim of a designer should be to ensure that there isn't anyone better! Quality is what will sustain any career in this industry, not price. A designer charging $7 an hour inevitably won't last long

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Guest jasfish

No, you shouldn't view someone charging $7 an hour as your competition, but what about someone charging $30/hour; $25/hour; $20/hour -- where's the cut-off point? Even $250-$350 a day is kind of low. I remember when I set my first rate, it was pure guesswork. Luckily, I started higher than that and was able to get good clients and earn a decent living.

 

Yes, the quality of design should be the determing factor, but for many clients price matters. You're dead-on, clients that hire someone at that rate aren't worth knowing.

 

Unfortunately, with the glut of good, talented designers out there, it's almost inevitable that the going rate will spiral downward. Top clients know what top work is worth, but it's tough to get those clients consistently, especially for those starting out.

 

I think the main thing is, don't charge too little! Know what your work is worth and charge accordingly. I'd rather lose a so-so client than work for next to nothing and gain a client that I'm never going to put on my reel anyway.

 

jasfish

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Guest speemur

this is good to see. im just getting into the heart of the billing issue, having developed a degree of confidence and proficiency in the design and the apps. im a freelancer andive been doing some work for a TV production house in town (vancouver) and they are comfortable with my stated daily of $400 (10 hour day). the thing is, there are times when i am into something new with them and i don't feel like i am delivering fast enough so i adjust that rate. i just started with another client and i gave him lower rates because i am way more into his work. it's the tough part of design if you ask me, the biz. if i was just good at the biz side, then i would just sell real estate but the creative gets me out of bed in the morning. one last thought = everyone wants a $100 shirt, even if its only worth $4.

 

mike

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