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superegophobia

Adobe CC, thumbs up or down?

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I was going to start a simple poll but figured that might be too black/white and considering the number of threads about technical issues, it seems more complex than that. After a year what would you give it for for ease of use, features, price, stability, etc. A combined thumbs up or down?

 

Of course after giving the trial a shot I had connection issues which worries me obviously. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/15/adobe-s-creative-cloud-goes-offline-and-takes-a-million-designers-with-it.html But wanted to hear what people think having used it daily more long term.

Edited by superegophobia

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It pretty much turned out like everyone expected it to - it "just is". Half okay when you figure in the pricing model, but riddled with all sorts of technical issues that really begin to get too annoying to even put up with updates and all that. Haven't bothered with any of that in the last half year. And well, as some people predicted, development of some apps has slowed down to a "we barely notice the changes in the new version" point indeed...

 

Mylenium

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At the risk of temping fate, I haven't had any of the connection issues other have had so it's been ok for me. It probably actually saves me money over the old upgrade-once-a-year model, or at least comes close. Philosophically I have some fundamental problems with it, but from a day-to-day use perspective it's fine on my end. I don't hate it.

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As a single freelancer I give the thumbs up. I like the incremental improvements model. Amazingly I like Premier.

I've worked in studios where it's a pain in the bottom but I don't know how much that's down to half arsed IT.

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Down. I don't like the idea that I'd have to make payments to Adobe every year for the rest of my life or lose everything. I'd rather pay a lump sum and not perpetually lose my software. So, I haven't upgraded from CS6, and don't intend to until CC includes some sort of perpetual license option.

 

It's not just a personal decision, either--we're one of (if not the) largest AE-focused studios in Canada, and we haven't moved a single computer to CC.

 

Of course, Adobe left CS6 with some crippling bugs that will now never be fixed, which pisses me off every day.

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Down.

 

A man works in a field, as he has every day for decades. Every single morning he gets up, gathers his tools and heads out to till, hoe, sow and dig the earth. He's learnt to use these tools, and he's good at it. He can use them well. He cares for them. He buys always them from the same man and has done for years, he is a good customer of the tool man, and the tool man does his best to be a good supplier of tools. One day, another man in fine clothes arrives at the workers house and says to the working man: "I'm the new tool man and from now on I own your tools and if you don't pay me, you don't work. If you don't agree to this, I'll take your tools anyway and you won't work then either". With little choice, the man has to agree and he pays the new tool owning man. One day the man's wife falls ill and he can't work for a week. When the man who now owns the tools come for his monthly payment, the worker can't pay. The tool owning man won't let him have his tools back until he pays, but now he can't earn. Eventually he borrows enough and pays the tool man.

 

The month after the tool man doesn't turn up with the worker's tools. After trying to locate them, the man asks the tool man's friends where he is but they don't know, and they don't really talk to the tool man; they don't actually know him and anyway they live far, far away. They work for the same people the tool man does, who are also far away, but somewhere else. You can't talk to them.

 

Through no fault of his own the man cannot be sure of his access to the tools that he's used for decades to earn a living in the field. The tool man might come back next month, or it might be raining and the tool man can't get through to the man's house, or the man might fall ill or any other number of unforeseen events might mean he has no access to his tools. He's at the mercy of the tool man now. He relies on him, and has to pay fealty to him regardless.

 

What is this man now? Who controls his ability to earn? He's not free any longer, unless he chooses to starve.

 

He is forever in the service of the tool man.

 

 

 

 

•Edited for poor spelling.

Edited by zook

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Amen to that. CS6 here at work and at home. I could see the financial end of it possibly making sense if you upgrade every time a new production suite is released, but if you don't...not so much.

 

I remember as a mainframe jockey in the 80s, noting how IBM would lease the operating system to owners of their hardware. I imagined the horror of having to purchase personal software that way, figuring that no matter how far down the road, some accounting jackhole would be pressing for that with all his/her might once it was technically feasible.

 

Here we are. With so many personal computers sitting on a constant Internet connection, I wouldn't doubt if this is just the beginning. Why wouldn't they want a perpetual revenue stream?

 

Cf

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With so many personal computers sitting on a constant Internet connection, I wouldn't doubt if this is just the beginning. Why wouldn't they want a perpetual revenue stream?

 

+1

 

This model definitely works much better for Adobe than the consumer most of the time.

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With so many personal computers sitting on a constant Internet connection, I wouldn't doubt if this is just the beginning. Why wouldn't they want a perpetual revenue stream?

It's rumored that Windows 9 will be subscription based, at least as an option.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2014/04/the-inevitable-arrival-of-subscription-based-windows/

 

I've always thought Adobe's biggest issue is they don't offer both subscription and permanent licenses if you want the latest version. As in Zook's example it seems quite unfair to not be able to open projects if down the road you want to stop the subscription. CS6 saving is nice but as time goes by this will be less and less useful since projects will have effects/functions that won't be usable in CS6.

 

Some kind of 'lease to own' would put a lot of people's minds at ease IMO, you sign up and after say a 2 year period you own the version that's current forever. Similar to a checkpoint save feature. If you only do it for a month then you don't own it since you didn't reach the threshold.

 

To be fair, having access to all Adobe programs w/ CC and up to date features is a huge plus, I just wish it didn't feel so strong-armed.

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I give it a thumbs up thus far. We had an odd lock-out period, which is really really bad, but it was due to the problem they had with their licensing server or whatever a couple weeks ago combined with us renewing our teams account under a different master account ID. That has been the only issue we have experienced with the subscription model, which we have been under since the cs 5.5 subscription trials.

 

 

I don't really get the other side's argument. It baffles me how it was at one point feasable for someone to buy software for all those seats, and upgrades for all those seats, yet the subscription model is somehow out of reach. I just can't make sense of that stance. You can get yearly teams agreements at less cost than the previous upgrade cycle. Its not even expensive. Who really uses software thats more than five-ish years old anyway? Anyone? No. Engineers use software to design factories. In 20 years, that factory still stands. But if there needs to be upgrades after 20 years, do they start with the software project file? No. Same example applies to anyone who uses software to get a job done.

 

The days of "oh, I don't have the latest upgrade. Can you give me a cs5 version?" are over under the new model.

 

Any time I hear people are still on CS6, I automatically assume they have always been pirating and never paid for the software that helps them generate income.

 

I predict that personal computers will migrate more into a cloud based model anyway, as demonstrated by Amazon Workspaces. Everyone will have a little roku-sized device, or a dumb OS like Chrome, that just connects to your own desktop hosted in a data center somewhere. Included with prime or whatever. You get to load up the hardware specs you want on the fly, and is accessible from anywhere. Its just something we will have to get used to over time.

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I don't really get the other side's argument. It baffles me how it was at one point feasible for someone to buy software for all those seats, and upgrades for all those seats, yet the subscription model is somehow out of reach.

I don't think anyone feels like it's out of reach, because it's clearly cheaper in the short term. The argument is one of preference. A preference not to be a renter. It seems like most people are much more satisfied with owning than renting, because it confers control and stability. It means, in very real terms, "We've made a transaction and I'm not beholden to you in any way, nor do you have any influence on how I conduct my business henceforth." It means independence from outside interference, which is a benefit on several levels. Renting is a similar relationship to being a debtor. The owner of the commodity you're renting can choose to stop renting to you at any time, leaving you with nothing, or can change the cost of your rent, or modify or retract the commodity or do essentially anything they want because they own that commodity. Sometimes there's just no better way to get access to the commodities you need, but it's far from the ideal way to run a business when your livelihood depends on it. Zook's analogy speaks to that point pretty well.

 

At some point, Adobe may reduce CC's backwards compatibility, either because it's cheaper not to maintain it, or because it allows them to move forward in a specific development direction, or because it will intentionally leave some non-adopters to contend with being an inconvenience to their clients, which may mean more of them move to a subscription model. The subscription model is driven primarily by business decisions for profit motives, so the rationale suggests that things of this nature will happen. Changes to the deal will happen in baby steps. Just enough that we'll swallow it, while maintaining consistent profit growth for Adobe, as a publicly traded company is obligated to do. Maybe a little price bump. Maybe fewer resources allocated to development. It sounds cynical, but it's really just kind of how it works when you have a soft monopoly. Doesn't mean their product isn't good. Doesn't mean there's an evil master plan to enslave us. But I personally don't want to be tied to it, for these reasons and more.

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My thumb is wavering between horizontal and down.

 

Not having to pay a large sum upfront and always having the latest version is great. Renting rather than owning core assets is the balance to that.

 

But for fucks sake, CC has to work 99.9% of the time or I would rather avoid it like the plague. I can't make a decision if CC is a good thing for me until is works like a professional solution. It's been deployed for many months now and it still feels half-assed.

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Who really uses software thats more than five-ish years old anyway? Anyone? No. Engineers use software to design factories. In 20 years, that factory still stands. But if there needs to be upgrades after 20 years, do they start with the software project file? No. Same example applies to anyone who uses software to get a job done.

In so many words: Complete BS. Clearly you have never even entered the hallowed halls of a CAD/ construction department where they actually even keep printed or hand-drawn plans in archival storage because - ta-da - there are legal requirements for that as there are requirements for being able to open, edit, modify or at least print digital files after 5/ 10/ 20 years, depending on which specific area they work in. Likewise I've seen machines running Windows 2000 until last year just because there was some obscure old software running on it that calculated layouts for laser cutting tin sheets or driving a super-expensive milling machine. And this would be even a good example for Illustrator - what good does it do you if you have the newest version, when the plug-in for your vinyl cutter doesn't work anymore. Similarly one could argue that hanging on to older versions of AE and Premiere might actually allow people to work when their video hardware and the necessary drivers are not compatible with CS6 or CC. Well, whatever. Your point simply makes no sense and is completely irrational.

 

Any time I hear people are still on CS6, I automatically assume they have always been pirating and never paid for the software that helps them generate income.

Same as above - what if they are merely trying to avoid all the technical issues and actually get their work done while at the same time not being dependent on any of the new features? After all, what do I need all those fancy green screen tools in the upcoming release of AE CC when I don't do any keying at all at the moment or already rely on other solutions? What if I don't get kicks out of the editable text templates when I don't use Premiere as my editing tool? So why on Earth should I then risk the stability of my system and established workflow by installing an update that I actually don't need and that may introduce new bugs and quirks? Makes no sense at all. Also does it make me a lamer when I work in CS5.5 because the disk cache or my GPU unnecessarily revving up even with nothing to do gets on my nerves? Is it bad to provide the stuff for download preferably in older versions and formats so other people who may not care to upgrade as well can enjoy it, too? There is a million reasons to not be on the newest and supposedly bestest version of a product even beyond my personal views and opinions...

 

I predict that personal computers will migrate more into a cloud based model anyway, as demonstrated by Amazon Workspaces. Everyone will have a little roku-sized device, or a dumb OS like Chrome, that just connects to your own desktop hosted in a data center somewhere. Included with prime or whatever. You get to load up the hardware specs you want on the fly, and is accessible from anywhere. Its just something we will have to get used to over time.

Yeah, and people who live near "blind" spots with shitty connection speeds will not be able to get any work done or the extra fees you have to pay when out of your "home zone" will eat up any potential revenues. And for sake of argument for simple technical reasons you will always have to have a certain power and feature set on your local device. Even Lagoa or that web-based modeling tool they showed recently rely on your local graphics hardware to render the viewports and interface with WebGL.

 

In any case, this could turn into an endless battle about GPU vs. cloud rendering and all the like, but suffice it to say that from my POV your points don't carry much realworld value and you have not considered the bigger picture...

Edited by Mylenium

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Mine is a half-assed shrug and a casual thumbs up. My thinking:

Every year or so I'd buy the next major release of AE. That was around 2 or 3K or something like that. At 50/month, thats 600 a year. 1200 in two years. Its easier to foot a $50 bill every month, than one giant purchase all at once. I'm saving money in the long run, while having a lot more at my disposal in terms of software to use and consistent updates. I'm always connected to the internet, and for the rare times I'm not, the software holds out until i'm back to a stable internet connection.

 

You can either bitch about change, or adapt, get your work done, and move on. Sometimes you have to roll with the punches when things are progressing in a way you can't prevent.

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I'm currently on paternity leave. I literally can't afford an extra $50 / month right now. If I was on CC, that would mean I would completely lose my software and access to all my projects. But I'm on CS6, so I don't. QED.

 

It's not a hypothetical problem.

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Most shops I'm working at are still on CS6, I'm on it at home as well. If CS7 had come out I would have upgraded along with everyone else, but CC just seemed like a pain in the ass with no real payoff. I don't think I'm missing much? Of the few shops I work with that have upgraded to CC, it seemed to function just as well as CS6. I know there are new features but nothing that I need now. I'll upgrade to CC when I have to i guess.

 

I like the way that Maxon handles their service agreement subscription program. You pay for the software at full price up front, and then pay a yearly fee that includes all version updates to the software at a reduced price. The day you opt out of the agreement is the day you no longer get version updates to your software, but you still keep what you already paid for.

 

It seems like a win win for both the customer and the company. I can't see why Adobe wouldn't offer that as an alternative option?

 

On a side note I've heard plenty of people talk about how they have hacked versions of CC. Not sure how they are doing it, maybe they are full of shit I don't know? If people want to steal they will find a way.

 

EDIT:

http://www.cnet.com/news/that-was-quick-adobes-creative-cloud-already-pirated/

Edited by sbmotiondesign

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You can either bitch about change, or adapt, get your work done, and move on. Sometimes you have to roll with the punches when things are progressing in a way you can't prevent.

 

You're right. We should just all bend over and offer our arses to the man, because he's in the saddle now and he's got your cojones in his mitts.

 

Or we could act like professionals who know our business inside out and make it clear that the way your man there has chosen might not be the best for us. Because we matter, you see.

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I'm apparently in the minority but for some reason I feel like adding my two cents. I've been on CC since the outset and haven't noticed any of the connection problems or debilitating bugs that people have mentioned. While I'm not super fond of paying 50 bucks a month to Adobe for the rest of the foreseeable future, so far it hasn't been that bad. You can still deduct it from your taxes as an independent contractor, and it's opened me up to a lot of other software that I wouldn't have purchased in the past: inDesign, Audition, SpeedGrade, DreamWeaver etc. Plus you get Typekit and 20 gigs of cloud storage. Not deal-makers, but nice additions.

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Due to a career change I do a couple of paid projects per year, not anything even worthy of posting on this site...so I hardly think it's worth paying $50/mo in perpetuity. So for the hobbyist or light user, CC isn't so much of a bargain. I don't know if CC would force me to upgrade my products, which wouldn't be a big deal if one's paying the subscription anyway, but that would force upgrades of any purchased plugins too. Not a fan of that idea.

 

If I had a dozen seats, CC would be a great way to manage them. If I was freelancing a lot and could pay for it, maybe. Philosophically I'm opposed to being beholden to Adobe just to make the software work, as Binky said. The Maxon model sounds interesting, too.

 

As to the assertion that people who complain about the model have been running pirated copies of the software, I must somewhat indignantly point out that I've been paying for Photoshop since I was a hobbyist who didn't even own a digital camera. Maybe because the money doesn't come very easily I'd rather not have to fork it over forever if I want to use the software.

 

I've seen a friend operate a pirated/hacked version of Photoshop. Of course, he ran into another problem previously mentioned, as in Photoshop quit working with his legacy wide-format printer a version or two ago, so he had to revert to an older version that worked for his situation. I believe that was addressed previously in this thread as well.

 

This whole debate could be defused by Adobe simply providing options. Then we could just throw stones at each other over which of us is smarter based on the option we choose. :P

 

Cf

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Great post, Zook. Couldn't agree more. When you're freelancing and the work is coming in, it's all good; but that $60 (with tax in Canada) per month becomes an issue if you're having a dry spell and you have a mortgage to pay, family to feed, etc., etc. Feels like being held hostage. I like the Maxon model better, too. Give us some choice.

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I'm still running CS6, and it's not because I'm using a pirated copy. I think Aromakat's assumption about that is misplaced, at least in the context of this board's users. If CC were available in the old Production Premium / Design / etc bundles then I'd be more inclined to give in and jump. The thing I hate about Adobe is the extent to which they are squeezing their soft monopoly via lack of choice for the customer. I don't want to pay towards broadening that monopoly even further. I'm not opposed to subscription per se, but I think it should be done better. In the past I generally upgraded every other year, so the new pricing is more expensive to me, but again - it's all about choice.

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Yeah, if they had tiered subs based around the old bundles, like Production Premium, etc., that would be easier to swallow. I'm paying for a whole bunch of stuff I don't need or use. If they wanted, say, $30 a month for the Production Premium applications, that would go a long way to making a lot of people happier, I think.

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