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Rip Off Artists

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Guest govinda
Here is a trace of another piece we did that we were inspired by and then found Ripoffs around the world.

 

http://www.belief.com/news/files/39.Chain%...Inspiration.pdf

 

This pdf follows a trail of inspiration, and explains why certain elements are the way they are.

 

I am also going to post a  side by side movie comparison of another piece we did, that the people actually stole the temp music off our website that we put to the piece.

 

That coming shortly.

36156[/snapback]

Amazing lack of integrity.

 

You had me until Apple. That's a little tenuous. To be fair you don't say it's a knockoff, but by that same token it should probably be pulled from a pdf that's otherwise all about knockoffs.

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Guest nama rupa

Govinda I didnt get that from the PDF. the title of the PDF is called that chain of inspiration. I didnt gather that Mike was saying Apple ripped anyone. Just showing various levels of inspiration

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Guest belief

As I said in the PDF the technique to get detail might have inspired the apple look.

Im not taking any credit for the apple stuff...it kicks ass and had nothing to do with us.

 

But silohettes with details, show me a piece that had that before sony in 2001.

There might have been, I just don't recall seeing it in any spots.

LOTS of pure silohettes and flash looking stuff FOR SURE, but no details or transparent parts (unless it was a bad key or something accidental).

 

Here is another old piece that we did that was ripped off.

 

http://www.belief.com/stage/index.php?sect...=400&height=300

 

The funny thing about this was they took the music too!

 

But what Im trying to point out, is there is story in our happy hour piece, its a party show where the hosts drink and sing and goof off and they are surrounded by the happy hour go go girls who dance during the show. So the open we created was a Bubble Motif to go along with the logo of the glass with bubbles coming out of it (a martini glass filled with champagne? yep thats what they wanted)

 

So even the chairs the girls are in mean something, their bubbles.

 

The sofa echos another part of the show, the laid back nature of people lounging around doing Karaoke which they did in the show.

 

So everything means something in the design, its not flash, its flash with substance.

 

The russian thing I have no idea what it is, but I doubt its the same show only in russian, but then again maybe the show (which was not good at all) was knocked off as well.

 

Who knows.

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Guest pixel_pimp

Rock On Unknown Chinese!!!!

 

They did a fucking Tip Top, Frame by Frame knock-off.

 

This is Advertisting, Marketing whatever you want to call it. Not Fine Art.

 

They paid you!!!

 

Clients are cheap penny pinch bastards. They go to places like Belief to get the Concept down. Then go to someother some place to "Create In the Style" "Replicated" and do other cards, gfx and info. They don't want to pay Belief to do at top dollar. I worked on some Disney project that Belief had done. Disney didn't want to pay belief so they had us "Knock it off". I guess that why Belief pre-renders all there comps. When they hand off a job. hehehe

 

That is the way in "Hollywood".

 

You are there Zombie.

 

-The Devils Advocate

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Guest ai

Thanks yuppster i wanted to post that one. About ideas piracy here's my 2c:

If gondry "borrow" something from someone not very known or do something with him (faggioni's knitting) people will say he's a genius, it's all about:

1)how you perfect the idea you took or match the subject you're working on

2)how you promote your work and how much you're exposed (having it shown on tv may avoid copycats, or if it can't avoid it you'll be credited as the precursor (well except for china of course))

 

Mike the pdfs you posted remind me gus van sant's psycho

at this point it's xeroxing. commercially it sucks but i find that quite funny actually to put them side by side. Industrial copy.

That could make a nice art installation...

Edited by ai

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Guest scottgfx
Rock On Unknown Chinese!!!!

 

They did a fucking Tip Top, Frame by Frame knock-off.

 

This is Advertisting, Marketing whatever you want to call it. Not Fine Art.

 

They paid you!!!

36166[/snapback]

 

The Chinese have gone to US design firms for work in the past. I would imagine this rip-off was done in the US as well.

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Guest vuzz

"I would imagine this rip-off was done in the US as well"

 

I'm sure you guys at Belief know who did it right?

 

So can a design be protected? I know it's is a fine line, but that Belief rip is over the top, there has to be some legal action that can be taken. Or would you even want to bother? Who would take it the designer or the company that payed for the design?

 

How about a web site that does nothing but showcases rip-offs, judge, jury and executioner is the community, if nothing else it would put egg on the face of the thief.

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Guest govinda
If gondry "borrow" something from someone not very known or do something with him (faggioni's knitting) people will say he's a genius, it's all about:

1)how you perfect the idea you took or match the subject you're working on

36167[/snapback]

I'll go further because this is a subject I've thought about for like 20 years. A thread like this always has to include Shakespeare--there needs to be a Godwin's law about it. He didn't write a single original story, etc.; same with Chaucer. 'Canterbury Tales' is so close to Bocaccio's 'Decameron' it's ridiculous. They did other things that showed off their genius. It's only in the post-Dylan singer-songwriter / French Cinema 'auteur' days that these kinds of debates have come to the forefront.

 

To me the line is drawn at a few simple things that you absolutely can't measure.

 

(1) Did the next person on the idea-chain breathe life into the idea? Did they stamp something of themselves on it, some confidence, some ego, some assuredness? Look at the Charlie Co. reel intro, some of the most confident animations there are. None of it is absolutely a first, but it's so confident it'd take a real weenie to make any bones about it. This is the basis of the line that no great work happens unless there's a big-time ego behind it. Which means decisiveness, confidence, clarity of mind, purpose. If you gave Brumby Boylston the worst reel on this board and told him to recreate it shot for shot, he couldn't help make it look fifty times better. It's just how the better craftspeople are put together.

 

(2) Did they take the idea one step further, or did they take it two steps? This sounds simplistic, but the major revolutionary ideas usually take its predecessors and make a leap forward, not just a step. On this count especially I think psyop usually qualifies, at least in terms of craft (not art; I'm not going there).

 

(3) Is the motif so fundamental nobody can avoid it? Like using 3D stroke--people occasionally bitch about it now, but how can you live without such a brilliant and vital thing?

 

That's the obligatory 'long govinda' post for the week...sorry...

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Guest Beaver

"Good artists copy, great artists steal."

-Picasso

 

“The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.”

-Einstein

 

People that rip off work are focused on personal gain, not originality. That's what I think Picasso and Einstein had in mind when they said those things.

Edited by Angry Beaver

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Guest SP3KTR

"Good artists copy, great artists steal."

thanks angry beaver, I had the notion to bust this quote. ALso , why didn't they do the particle crowd tutorial on the mac site? their final work would've looked much better

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Guest plank

On Plagiarism

by Richard Posner

The Atlantic Monthly, April 2002

"West Side Story borrowed from Shakespeare, who borrowed from Arthur Brooke. Paradise Lost borrowed from Genesis, as did Thomas Mann in Joseph and His Brothers. Manet borrowed from Raphael, Rembrandt, and others. If these are examples of plagiarism, then we want more plagiarism!"

 

found this quote at http://www.illegal-art.org

 

maybe not completly relevent to this thread but its full of interesting stuff on the the subject of copyright related issues.

 

 

and before you ask its not about graffiti :)

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Guest renascent

re Govinda, i dont mean it as black and white as your qouting me on it.

in this case it is a 100% rip-off, theres no point here trying to say "we were just inspired". what that chinese company did is shameless ripping.

 

if you like to qoute me qoute this

 

""everybody is influenced by others, without others we wouldnt be here today, we copy from the day we are born, its how we learn, but we are also individuals with our own thougts. nothing will ever change if people are afraid to follow their own thoughts and make them happen. it will inspire others again... its a big spiral.

 

so take the spiral, or take the circel and end up repeating.""

Edited by renascent

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Guest parallax

Wow, how did i miss this thread.

 

The whole problem with this copying business is the fact that the fine line between inspiration and just plain stealing is a bit arbitrary. While nobody in their right mind would say the Chinese package is an original, as it simply is a carbon copy, a lot of techniques and styles that are supposed to be a first in the advertising or film world, have been done before in (experimental)video art. This goes for all forms of creation.

The very process of copying work from a traditional artist, and putting it on the screen with some ingenious branding, makes it a first. While the original source might be obscure and hard to find, the next generation of copying done by someone using the same media and means, is the blatantly ripping hack.

I think this discussion is a bit dangerous, although it has been pretty civil this far. I agree with both Renascent and Govinda, on the one hand everyone is inspired by everything around us, unless you were raised by a pack of wolves. This doesn't mean you shouldn't at least TRY and create something orinigal. At the same time, when you are inspired by something in these days of the interweb, there are certainly degrees of ripoffness. Especially when you are targeting a demo that has an attention span of a monkey on acid, and your budget is the size of the Iraqi Snowboarding team, the clichéd look of some popelements might just do the trick. Those tricks however, were in the (distant) past, part of an original piece.

When does inspiration turn into stealing? Who IS the originator? Oftentimes the 'stealer' label is dependant on ones' social status and position.

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Guest igorschmigor

i can't help it, everytime i see something i like i want to have it.

This avatar-changing phase is something i have to go through to find myself.

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Guest clintvideo
Clintvideo = you post in this thread was meaningless and stupid.

36152[/snapback]

 

Perhaps, because I didn't put it in context. I was just pointing out that this sort of thing is common. There's a complete disregard for patent, trademark, or copyright laws in many countries, one of which is China.

 

For example, I have a friend who sells ATVs made in China - they are an exact copy of the 50cc Honda air-cooled OHV engine that has been sold worldwide since probably the 1970s. Except it's not made out of pot metal.

 

I bet you could make a similar case for a zillion different products: a cheap rip-off counterfeit with a Made in China label on the box. Such as a Bolex watch or Oaxley sunglasses. Why should we think that less tangible products like multimedia content should be any different?

 

I wasn't making a racial slam, although one super-short sentence didn't set the proper context. For that reason I'm glad my first post was nixed by the admins. I'm just saying that this sort of thing has been going on for decades, just probably not as notably in the multimedia business.

 

Cf

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Guest govinda

Thanks to Parallax, we have a new contest theme:

 

Design a 30 second promo for the Iraqi Snowboarding Team.

 

(Clint, sorry about that and thanks for the clarification. Renascent, great, then we agree. I could only take your meaning from your words, which have been mostly of the throw-out variety about everyone being copied by everyone. But there was also that long exchange with ZNK that I probably should've looked more closely at. And since you're someone who gets copied more than 99% of people, you have a perspective few others can approach.)

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Guest radiuscorner

It seems all you can do is try to shame people into not lifting work, or attempt legal action...

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Guest govinda

Shame is great. For people who have souls.

 

But I just remembered something about Apple / Chiat combo that produced the iPod ads.

 

Chiat's work for Apple (and for a lot of clients) is always about 'stuff you can see from across the street and know it's our brand.' Think Different was one of those--huge B/Ws with a tagline. You couldn't miss them. For the last three years with the iPod it's same thing. And they won the Cannes Gold I believe, which is right even if I don't like the ads, because they're hugely effective while having a good simple style.

 

I first learned the Chiat look thing when I was doing a pitch for Champion sporstwear supervised by an ex-Chiat creative director. Everyone was like, hey, look, our work is Chiat now. All visually dead similar, short headline if any, type big enough to see from 35,000 feet if any. As opposed to the carefully designed, small details stuff you might see from Fallon or Goodby. Their schtick is, simply, blow it out, brand recognition, simple idea.

 

So watch out. If you ever come up with a look that shows up well at a distance of 50 feet (as you did, Mike), Chiat is going to be all over it. But keep in mind that they're using it for their own reasons of it fitting what they always want to do as an institutional style with their ads.

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Guest Strawhat Cowboy

I really hate this copying thing but I agree with clintvideo. In some countries people are free to get away with it.

 

In Malta practically every piece of music used on TV is taken from popular music. And no one worries about acquiring the neccassary rights. It's something I've been trying to change at the place I work, but the boss figures that he'd rather use something which we can get for free and people will like, then pay a musician to do something new. Also, we get pirate DVDs before movies are launched in the cinemas (I mean worldwide), same reason as above, everyone here supports it.

 

And counterfeits have been going on for ages, it's something that i'm afraid is hard to stop

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