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Guest govinda

iTunes Eminem Ad

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Guest Tiziano
There are a series of sluices that channel art to the masses. Everything from Hokusai to Rockwell to Whistler to Da Vinci has landed in a weird place in pop culture--a phenomenon that Warhol played with. Advertising is one of those channels. I can't count how many times someone has used fine art as a conceptual base for their ad. Crass? Well, sure, but the net effect is that the cultural dialog is the better for it and has adapted better to change. If you held an image of Rodin's Thinker front of a Wal-Mart clerk from Wenatchee, she might know what it is and name the artist. That's a better situation than not.

 

But if someone were to animate my sister's friend Kim Dingle's work, she'd rightly feel ripped off. It's not fair to her. It does get her ideas into wider play, but at the expense of her own livelihood.

 

It's not like this is an easy issue. This is just a different spin, and probably one that'll bring up about ten howling exceptions. :D

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I agree Govinda. It isn't easy. Even Michelangelo, in his 'Pieta' had to carve his name in big bold letters across Mary's bodice to show that he was the artist because some thought it was another. And, years later Caravaggio 'took' Michelangelo's pose of Adam and God (Sistine Ceiling) for his 'Calling of Matthew.' It goes back further. Designs on Ancient Greek urns turn up again and again in Renaissance art. (Come to think of it, those were all black and rust-orange. Maybe Psyop owes Plato a thing or two.)

 

Everyone knows who the artists in Govinda's first group were, regardless of advertising. They are part of our culture and Culture. I suspect far too few know who Govinda's sister's friend is. She is not part of our culture (yet anyway).

 

To me that's the difference. The Psyop ad is/was not 'known' like Coke's 'I'd like to teach the world to sing...' or Wendy's 'Where's the beef!' or even 'Dude, you're gettin' a Dell!' Those are cultural icons.

 

To me the iPod ad is a blatant rip off, not an homage. If they had done a brilliant job with it then I'd say it was still a rip off but man are they good. As it is, well, I can't stand Eminem so I'm biased.

 

Honda Cog anyone?

Flame on!

Edited by Tiziano

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Guest fredcamino

amidst all this iAd fervor, let us not forget that people are dying here, and no amount of wholly original advertising is going to stop that.

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Guest Tiziano
amidst all this iAd fervor, let us not forget that people are dying here, and no amount of wholly original advertising is going to stop that.

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I think some Cheese Whiz on a Ritz cracker might help... or not.

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Guest govinda

Okay, here's a new angle on this.

 

Remember the Infiniti spots that psyop did? The ones with all the painted scenery?

 

Those were done by the ad agency in Los Angeles that handles Infiniti, and has since about 1988. That'd be Chiat/Day. ;) So Chiat have worked with psyop in the past, which means their reel is all over the production office. I mean, the psyop reel is all over every production office in the country simply because they're so good, but this is just tighter, uh, evidence. 'We have suspicions that you've seen psyop's work before! This is proof!'

 

The creatives and producer were different:

Infiniti/'Beach': (psyop)

CD: Rob Schwartz

CW/CD: Jack Fund

AD: Lance Ferguson

Prod: Debra Wittlin

 

Eminem/'Detroit': (romanek/logan)

CD: Duncan Milner

CD: Eric Grunbaum

CW: Krista Wicklund

AD: Demian Olivera

EProd: Cheryl Childers

Prod: Mike Refuerzo

 

Eric Grunbaum is the same writer on the Apple campaign since Chiat got it back from BBDO in about 1998. Duncan Milner joined soon after iirc. If this stink gets too big, it could cost them their spot as the top Apple guys. You'd be surprised how sensitive companies are to bad press.

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Guest fredcamino
Nobody understands the suffering of the youth like Fred does.

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Nobody but Eminem that is.

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Guest martober
I don't think any artist exists or existed in a cultural vacuum; people take other people's ideas and combine them, improve upon them and expose them to more people. If you want a vibrant culture then you need to let ideas travel freely.

 

This quote is the best thing I have got out of this discussion and I totally support this view.

 

My little bit of research shows that Lugz would lose money and lose face if they tried to sue Apple over this ad. If any of the forum members support tighter legislation to prevent this supposed rip off please explain why and how. If you are a graphic designer or other industry 'creative' you may be jeopardizing the freedoms that allow your art/craft/business/culture to flourish.

 

I am not condoning flagrant plagiarism but appealing for a reasoned assessment of the Logan V Psyop issue.

 

It all comes back down to personal pride in not having to totally rip off others and personal scorn on those who do.

 

Some rip offs are bigger than others. The Citi Theft Campaign is not really a rip off. Some ideas such as dubbing an unusual voice are basically public domain. I have learnt the lead creative on the job has never heard of Gillian Wearing. He does not deserve to be scorned just as Logan don't deserve dissing for the iPod ad.

 

"Go with the Flow"was a song released by Queens of the Stone Age off the album "Songs for the Deaf" in 2003. The video was the work of a British company named Shynola.

 

Take a look, it is worth seeing.

Queens of the Stone Age

 

Media > Albums > Songs for the Deaf > Go with the flow, Video

 

Now compare and contrast with

 

"Summertime" a commercial for the Ford Streetka by Ogilvy & Mather, London and Psyop.

 

Both excellent bits of work from 2003, both adding to our commercial/creative culture. Both made my mouth fall open when I saw them but for very different reasons.

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Guest MBX

yes the summertime has some similiar touches to the go with the flow video.

i guess even in that example one could probably say there was some shynola influence when psyop did the ford one, who knows. i see some similarities with the girls.

but at least the treatment of the cars, colors & environment isn't blatantly looking the same.

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Guest yuppster
If any of the forum members support tighter legislation to prevent this supposed rip off please explain why and how.

I am not condoning flagrant plagiarism but appealing for a reasoned assessment of the Logan V Psyop issue.

I don't think anyone here wants to make a court case out of this. Yes, we've proved different degrees of "inspiration" happen all the time in advertising - that's old news. For this case I think govinda's "swarm of public scorn" is adequate.

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Guest martober
Dude... I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm trying to do you a favor...

Please just stop.

 

Just... Stop.

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Can anyone help me understand why nextseason would say this? Is he not just trying to stymie the debate?

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Guest martober
Wendy's 'Where's the beef!' or even 'Dude, you're gettin' a Dell!' Those are cultural icons.

In the UK the Lugz advert is not well known. I don't know if it aired here or not. I have certainly never heard of the Dell and Wendy's ads you mention. Remember the iPod ad is a global campaign. A lot of global consumers have no idea what Lugz are let alone remember a few year old campaign.

 

Around here the word Lugs means ears!

 

As in "get your lugs around this chipper new Eminem dope fly gangsta shizzle, it really is the bees knees!"

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Guest fredcamino

you actually make a good point about the "summertime" ad and the "go with the flow" video. i always considered it a complete rip-off.

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Guest Tread
Can anyone help me understand why nextseason would say this? Is he not just trying to stymie the debate?

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Because you are making stupid arguments that no one cares that much about. People talk outside of mograph, and most likely, they aren't saying nice things about you. Not that you are wrong, you are just beating it to death when it died about a week ago, and it's annoying.

 

But if you are some dude who is just playing a prank on all of mograph and laughing by yourself in front of your computer, than I guess you've had alot of fun, and you've accomplished your mission. Easy to hide behind a screen name.

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Guest donkeykong

shynola's video and psyop's ford spot....whoa!!! you may not say it's a blatant ripoff, but it's still a ripoff.

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Guest martober

It is easy to hide behind a screen name. It is also easy to describe an argument as stupid instead of returning a thought provoking and considered response.

 

Sure, there is a little bit of Devil’s Advocate in what I have said on this thread. Although I assure you the opinions I have expressed are generally agreed on with colleagues, motion graphics buddies and clients that happen to be hanging out at our workspace here in Central London. Call us all nuts if you want but that wouldn’t really be a debate would it?

 

If, as you say “no one cares that much” then why is this the hottest thread at Mograph Central? There are a lot of positive aspects to what we have discussed. Govinda found a “cool” artist. I enjoyed looking at Kim Dingle’s excellent work. (There is one company that could do them justice in terms of animation and she ought to propose collaboration with Studio AKA)

 

Sometimes on here it feels like I have accidentally logged into the Psyop intranet but since this is an open forum I would like to continue posting on Mograph. I was actually excited to be introduced to a site specialising in this subject. I rate what has been created very highly and have been encouraging others to join the community.

 

It intrigues me when Tread says I am “not…wrong” but I am annoying. Does that mean Tread thinks I am generally right? If so; why?

 

So the iPod commercial discussion is dead? Tiziano reminded us the issues have been around since the Renaissance. So the topic did not die a week ago. These are important issues for the Motion Designer and they will always exist.

 

Creativity, originality, inspiration, ethics.

 

Mograph forum rules ask us to avoid discussion of “platform wars” because “it's boring” so what better to discuss than those things I have listed above?

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Guest govinda

I thought you were off the charts at first, martober, but I'm gaining respect. I think you've made one ridiculous, disingenuous point in this that makes me wonder at your motives however--that one I flagged as 'cart before horse.'

 

But the thing about this is that I'm a spectator myself, not a driver. I hope a groundswell comes up to somehow punish people who cynically cross the line. I've seen copying too much to be all that outraged at the crossing of the line myself, but I'll throw my weight on whatever ruck jumps on the poor Chiat guys with the ball.

 

I actually never noticed the Sun Ka / Queens of the Stone Age similarity, probably because the QoSA thing rang a bell also, so most bets were off. So I'm personally not going out of my way to defend psyop on all their work. Their Nascar and Red Hots video weren't very original either. For me, the 'Inviolable Canon of Psyop' is Lugz, LensCrafters, Drift, PPP, Anthem. Anyone taking a bite out of those is, in my eyes, probably biting *only* psyop, as each of them were great leaps beyond what was done before. Not completely original, but great leaps. And the reason I defend psyop more than anyone is that nobody else but Shynola has made as many great leaps to advance the craft.

 

See that? There's relativism all over my post. There is no black and white. It's all gray area. My own line across the gray is different than anyone else's, and yours is also. I make my case for my line as well as I can, but in the back of my mind I know it's destined, even if it was headlines in the Times, to be grasping at straws.

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Guest donkeykong

For me, the 'Inviolable Canon of Psyop' is Lugz, LensCrafters, Drift, PPP, Anthem. Anyone taking a bite out of those is, in my eyes, probably biting *only* psyop, as each of them were great leaps beyond what was done before. Not completely original, but great leaps.

 

 

 

just checked out all the projects mentioned above, i'm not too sure about lenscrafters.... graphics over footage is not a great leap. But it's all subjective i guess.

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Guest MBX

hmm somehow i feel like it's getting pointless.

 

we're driving into oneworld-goverment, oneworld-religion, oneworld-currency...

 

and i see nike, coke/ pepsi, mcdonalds, starbucks, microsoft, apple, viacom, and so on and so on... and all these corporations merged to a oneworld-nazi where all it's commercials look the same.

 

xbox-360-nazi.jpg

Edited by MBX

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Guest SermonOfMockery

wenatchee is a really awful place... my dad is from eastern washington, i hate that half of the state.

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