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Guest motionstream

Who Killed the Electric Car?

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Guest parallax

Hydrogen-powered cars are just a concept—which will NEVER get off the drawing board. All the talk about hydrogen powered cars is nothing more than smoke and mirrors by the oil industry to distract consumers from the truth about big oil's business.

 

Nonsense. Hydrogen cars are very real. The only problem is hydrogen being a energy carrier instead of a source. Much like a battery is a carrier.

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Guest motionstream

Nonsense. Hydrogen cars are very real. The only problem is hydrogen being a energy carrier instead of a source. Much like a battery is a carrier.

 

 

Yes, that's true, but solving the problem of storage is a really big issue and shouldn't be underestimated. There is no real solution on the horizon. And... let's suppose you did solve this issue tomorrow, you won't be rushing out to buy one anytime soon because there is no place to power it up. The infrastructure is a long way into the future at best.

 

And, the price for a hydrogen powered car is way out of any affordable range. On the other hand building an electric car is relatively inexpensive. One of the reasons GM killed it off was due to the fact that they were scared they could not make money on it and it would destroy their existing business,

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Guest clintvideo

That'd be cool if all the bigger cities in the US were mandated to use electric cars. Of course, they don't work worth a crap in the winter or for long distances...but it never gets cold in NY or Chicago, does it? But these are the same places that mandate Ethanol use, another big loser. So go for it, I say.

 

Ethanol is huge up here right now...not for people to burn (they're not stupid), but because of the federal subsidies it rakes in. That's the only way it can be viable. You have to use fuel to plant, maintain, and harvest the corn crop. You need to use fuel to generate the ethanol. And when you're done you have a fuel that has about 20% fewer BTUs per gallon than gasolene. The farmers are lined up for the federal gravy train, though.

 

As far as biodiesel goes, there's a farmer up here that grows sunflowers as his main crop; he smashes a bunch of the sunflower seeds for oil that fuels his equipment all year long. That's pretty cool.

 

Cf

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Guest nutrition_facts

wouldn't that hho gas from the video tread posted the other day make existing power generation based on oil much more efficient? from what i understood a hybrid solution between gasoline and hho would be the most efficient for cars, so that would probably apply to fossil fuel based powerplants. then people could feed their cars from the power grid without increasing emissions on account of the extra electricity.

 

and yeah, like someone mentioned also the deserts in the world can be put to use as well. plus in spain there are probably tens of thousands of wind generators scattered around.

 

btw.... any ground-breaking habit changes going on in anyone's lives regarding saving energy and water? ;)

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Guest scott frizzle

 

 

btw.... any ground-breaking habit changes going on in anyone's lives regarding saving energy and water? ;)

 

One of my favorite "clean" technologies is ground source heating http://www.est.org.uk/myhome/generating/types/groundsource/. Basically, you pump water through tubes in the ground (or into wells depending on the setup), the water absorbs heat from the ground, and you use a heat exchanger to extract the heat from the water to heat your home. It also works in reverse for cooling. Even in cold climates, the ground below the frost line stays at around 50 degrees, so it can be used all over the world. Aside from the relatively small amount of electricity it takes to run the water pumps, it's a zero fossil fuel technology. If you're thinking of building a house, it's definitely worth a look. It's more expensive up front, but it will save you a bunch of money down the road and you can do the superior dance in front of your fossil fuel/ electricity using friends.

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Guest nutrition_facts

One of my favorite "clean" technologies is ground source heating http://www.est.org.uk/myhome/generating/types/groundsource/. Basically, you pump water through tubes in the ground (or into wells depending on the setup), the water absorbs heat from the ground, and you use a heat exchanger to extract the heat from the water to heat your home. It also works in reverse for cooling. Even in cold climates, the ground below the frost line stays at around 50 degrees, so it can be used all over the world. Aside from the relatively small amount of electricity it takes to run the water pumps, it's a zero fossil fuel technology. If you're thinking of building a house, it's definitely worth a look. It's more expensive up front, but it will save you a bunch of money down the road and you can do the superior dance in front of your fossil fuel/ electricity using friends.

 

niiiiiiiiiice. :)

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Guest parallax

When you use fosile fuels, you also need to take the pollution into account. Gasoline is the only source where the damage done is not build into the price, so basically it's much more expensive then you think it is.

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Guest igorschmigor

One of my favorite "clean" technologies is ground source heating http://www.est.org.uk/myhome/generating/types/groundsource/. Basically, you pump water through tubes in the ground (or into wells depending on the setup), the water absorbs heat from the ground, and you use a heat exchanger to extract the heat from the water to heat your home. It also works in reverse for cooling. Even in cold climates, the ground below the frost line stays at around 50 degrees, so it can be used all over the world. Aside from the relatively small amount of electricity it takes to run the water pumps, it's a zero fossil fuel technology. If you're thinking of building a house, it's definitely worth a look. It's more expensive up front, but it will save you a bunch of money down the road and you can do the superior dance in front of your fossil fuel/ electricity using friends.

 

I almost got a ground source heating for my house. But it's not super-efficient. The temperature 100m below is a little warmer than above (10°C warmer - sorry don't know in Fahrenheit). It does cost quite some electricity to pump that up. You do make a little profit, money-wise, but the initial cost of drilling that deep is still too high. Solar energy currently seems to be the better alternative, i believe.

 

I'm also surprised that ethanol isn't being discussed much. The argument against it provided on the website is very poor. They admit that ethanol made from sugarcane in Brazil has proven very efficient, but corn-based ethanol produced in the USA require as much oil to produce as it replaces.

So, why not simply use sugarcane from Brazil. They have enough to supply the whole world. But that's probably a political thing too. The USA don't want to be dependent on others. Yet it remains a cheap, clean and efficient replacement for Oil. Half Brazil already uses it, and you can even make small planes fly with ethanol.

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Guest scott frizzle

I almost got a ground source heating for my house. But it's not super-efficient. The temperature 100m below is a little warmer than above (10°C warmer - sorry don't know in Fahrenheit). It does cost quite some electricity to pump that up. You do make a little profit, money-wise, but the initial cost of drilling that deep is still too high. Solar energy currently seems to be the better alternative, i believe.

 

I'm also surprised that ethanol isn't being discussed much. The argument against it provided on the website is very poor. They admit that ethanol made from sugarcane in Brazil has proven very efficient, but corn-based ethanol produced in the USA require as much oil to produce as it replaces.

So, why not simply use sugarcane from Brazil. They have enough to supply the whole world. But that's probably a political thing too. The USA don't want to be dependent on others. Yet it remains a cheap, clean and efficient replacement for Oil. Half Brazil already uses it, and you can even make small planes fly with ethanol.

 

I assume the system you speak of was the well based system then? I'm not sure how those stack up against the ones that just run a very long tube a couple meters below the ground; I assume the latter would require less pumping. I suppose you could run your pumps from solar...

 

Using solar exclusively can be tricky in colder climates; I'd want to have some kind of backup. These two technologies working together seems like a solid heating/ cooling option though.

 

Edit: By the way, I also opted out of the ground source system when it came time to replace my old oil furnace; I could not justify the cost either. I'd do it in a new house, but my house was already set up for oil, so the cost differential was pretty extreme. So, I have an brand new evil (although very efficient) oil furnace in my basement.

Edited by scott frizzle

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Guest clintvideo

Ground source heating is somewhat popular up here; however, the initial costs are daunting. I think the break-even point is at 10 or 15 years. Where you start to make it up faster is in a larger house (which I doubt a mographer's going to afford). A friend of mine has done that and is saving a ton on his monthly bills.

 

We're building a new church and were looking into energy-efficient ways to heat and cool it. One of the deacons works in that business and he told us about a newer technology, an air-to-air system. It works similar to ground source heating but with a big exchanger similar to an external air conditioner. It uses electricity instead of fossil fuels and is pretty efficient. There's no way we could afford all the well-drilling and pump units to do ground source heating in a building of that type.

 

Cf

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Guest scott frizzle

Ground source heating is somewhat popular up here; however, the initial costs are daunting. I think the break-even point is at 10 or 15 years. Where you start to make it up faster is in a larger house (which I doubt a mographer's going to afford). A friend of mine has done that and is saving a ton on his monthly bills.

 

We're building a new church and were looking into energy-efficient ways to heat and cool it. One of the deacons works in that business and he told us about a newer technology, an air-to-air system. It works similar to ground source heating but with a big exchanger similar to an external air conditioner. It uses electricity instead of fossil fuels and is pretty efficient. There's no way we could afford all the well-drilling and pump units to do ground source heating in a building of that type.

 

Cf

 

Another thing to check out are any state of federal subsidies that you might qualify for if you're putting in a "clean" system. I'm not up on that info, but I'll bet there's some money floating around out there if you look hard enough...

 

Under the Clean Air act, my brother in law in Atlanta gets $3 a day and free laundry service for riding his bike to work instead of driving. Nothing dramatic for sure, but it's something...

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Guest RustyAce

Hydrogen power is a fantasy. It is a ploy by big oil to push alternative fuels out 20 to 30 years into the future

 

Actually GM along with other manufactures are claiming to have a hydrogen powered vehicle in production by 2010. California just passed a bill to get hydrogen-fueling stations in place by 2010. And Honda has developed a home system that would power your house, and you electric hybrid car. They are currently working on ways to cleanly separate hydrogen for fuel. Now don’t get me wrong I think oil companies are as crooked as they come, and have done everything to slow this change possible, but to discredit hydrogen so generally is rather unfair, considering the billions the automotive industry has dropped into making this fuel a reality.

just my 2 cents

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Guest govinda
Electric vehicles may not themselves produce CO2 emissions, but they get their energy from the existing electrical grid. So, all you're really doing is changing where the power gets generated.

 

Ahh, yet another thread I missed in my long absence. I'm into this in two ways.

 

1) Scott, there's a distinction in pollution control between 'point source' pollution and 'nonpoint source' pollution. Cars are nonpoint sources--it's millions of tailpipes, cars of different ages, badly policed smog check system, impossible to gauge, keep safe, etc. Power plants are point sources, one smokestack, discreet entries and exits of resources. They can be kept safe much more easily. This assumes responsible government, which is to say nothing like what we have. So it's point vs. nonpoint, at least last I checked, back when I worked on environmental stuff.

 

2) I was at the ad agency that produced the EV1 ads in like 1996 or 1997. We had an early production model and got to drive it around. The print ads won the Kelly Awards that year, $100,000 to the creative team, and used Nadav Kander photos in John Doyle art directed ads.

 

At the time, I was sure the EV1 was GM just throwing out a sop, an elaborate bit of PR, Ed Begley photo ops, and then killing the product off and saying, this was never going to work. I can't wait to see this movie, but I really really hope it's not another one of those agitprop Greenwald-ish films that preaches to the choir and tries to weave a story on passion without bothering to stick to hard fact.

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Guest motionstream

 

At the time, I was sure the EV1 was GM just throwing out a sop, an elaborate bit of PR, Ed Begley photo ops, and then killing the product off and saying, this was never going to work. I can't wait to see this movie, but I really really hope it's not another one of those agitprop Greenwald-ish films that preaches to the choir and tries to weave a story on passion without bothering to stick to hard fact.

 

GM gets slammed pretty hard by this movie. It sticks to the hard facts about their greed, management run by fear of the future, and evil mentality. Go see the film! You'll be happy you did.

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Guest Self_90

Well I know that Audi just lunch the racing of the future for the Endurance Races, The 24 of Lemans win by a diesel car ! I like that... Soon hybrids and Electrical!! :D That could be a good change for that.

 

They also won in daytona...

 

047.jpg

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Guest C.Smith

We're all doomed anyways. The fact that "Rubbernecking" exists is a small model for the way our society will eat itself.

 

Somebody who drives upon an accident that is on the side of the road and is not impeding traffic will want to slow and look at the severed head on the ground. This will start the chain. Then everyone has slowed down to go by the accident. So now there may be a large percentage of people who wouldn't have slowed down to look at the head if they were passing by at full speed. But now since they had to wait in a slow line while every other schmuck gets his look, then by god then everybody is gonna get their look at the bloody lifeless face as it stares into a pile of what once was his windshield.

 

There will always be a few ppl like me who even though I'm forced to creep by the accident at 2 MPH, I won't look over just for the fucking principal that none of us should've bothered in the first place. But there will never be enough of those ppl to actually keep traffic flowing...ever.

 

We are living in a giant energy rubberneck. :(

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