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parallax

How hard can it be?

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With all the multi-quadruple-double-multi-core-crest-threading you would think After Effects and other software would be super fast in every aspect next to rendering, but no, apparently, all that CPU power can only be used with rendering.

How hard can it be to assign 1 core to decoding assets, and the rest to individual processes or plug-ins within an application? With PC's turning into supercomputers, you would think that applications would be created in a more modular fashion to use all that power. For instance the 8 core Mac, wich isn't that far away. I'd maybe even go as far out as to say that current high end workstations have the same raw power as those SGI paperweights. (apart from the drives)

I am talking to you programmers, we 'people' are paying good money for this.

 

Stop the creation of slow apps. I want instant gratification. I want more time spend in pubs.

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I want more time spend in pubs.

 

Well, there you have it, those darn developers tend to go to pubs as well!

 

Anyway, I had some similar question back when multiprocessors turned up.

The basic answer , then, was even if the tasks where split for several CPU´s

the overhead for each process to sync and update each other would not give much

help.

This might of coarse change once the pubs close....

 

Oh I remember now, I was thinkning of splitting workload over several machines that only

came into work for NET rendering.

 

Cheers

Lennart

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I am with you Parallax.

 

One thing I've always wanted and never understood quite why it's so difficult is distributing workloads across multiple workstations automatically. I'm not talking about half assed solutions like AE's net rendering where you spend most of the time you save setting it up, and forget a plug in or something and it all goes to hell. I mean transparent, automatic, OS level distribution of processing. I want it now.

 

And throw in my flying car while you're at it.

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supposedly, someday, AE will take advantage of Xgrid built into MacOSX.

 

indexworkflow20050412.gif

 

but first let's see how long it takes them to make and Intel native or Universal version of it. :huh:

Edited by nybe

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I couldn't agree more. What is Adobe, Apple, Microsoft and other doing. Even when the first G5 came out the OS and software were never written to take advanbtage of the raw power. The Chips are fast, they have been for a while now. It is OS X which maybe in Leopard going to be "more" 64bit than Tiger.

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Maybe we should go back to mainframes

mainframe.jpg

 

 

This might sound ridiculous, but instead of trying to balance the workload between computers, wouldn't it be easier to have a couple of massive servers that run everything and you could simply use a terminal session to work on them?

I can't say that I'm a fan of terminals (especially not when you're stuck administrating an NT TS server) but I think that this could be a viable solution in large environments.

Maybe it's already done and I simply don't know bout it.

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I'm sure everything we want can be done easily and will be done eventually.

 

"They" are just trying to figure out how to charge us more money for it.

Edited by nybe

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It annoys the crap outta me that applications are getting slower and less efficient by the point-release.

I don't want 3D interfaces, i don't want aqua, i don't want easy-liveupdate-crash-alore, i don't want beveled buttons, i want my goddamn money's worth.

Some operations i can do better in my head then the computer can. Maybe all those cores should be handled as a single CPU by the OS.

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supposedly, someday, AE will take advantage of Xgrid built into MacOSX.

 

 

X-grid is such a joke. like most additions to the mac OS. also gridirons nucleo pro is supposed to address most of these issues in AE. in so far as rendering & previewing? Havn't actually used it, and on that note don't even know if it's released yet. but they were pushing the hell out of it at NAB. whats more amazing were the demo workstations at NAB for AE where they were toting the speed of AE on a composition that had 3 layers in it & wasn't even an HD comp. they wouldn't even let you get a question in there, and when i finally managed to squeeze on in as to what kind of system they were running AE on all i could get out of the guy was "oh it has a really expensive video card" then he said I should go check out the plug in pavillion. honestly when has anyone had a project that consisted of 3 layers? most of mine range in the hundreds to thousands. I don't think adobe listens to it's consumers anymore.

Edited by aspekt

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X-grid is such a joke. like most additions to the mac OS.

 

I haven't used X-grid much, but making a statement about most stuff being added to the Mac OS being a joke is a little broad and unfounded. The addition of Exposé alone saves such a ridiculous amount of time. Spotlight changed the way people search through a collection of files. iTunes revolutionized the way people interact with their media all in one area...etc, etc. I am no Mac fanboy, but one thing you have to know about apple is their products are very evolutionary and I think Xgrid is in it's early stages.

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I haven't used X-grid much, but making a statement about most stuff being added to the Mac OS being a joke is a little broad and unfounded. The addition of Exposé alone saves such a ridiculous amount of time. Spotlight changed the way people search through a collection of files. iTunes revolutionized the way people interact with their media all in one area...etc, etc. I am no Mac fanboy, but one thing you have to know about apple is their products are very evolutionary and I think Xgrid is in it's early stages.

 

I'm not going to get into a mac PC thing. It's just my opinion. I hate spotlight just because the shortcut for it conflicts with the shortcuts for zooming in & out of a canvas in PS & AI. & i-tunes ins't part of the MAC OS just the same as windows media player isn't a part of the windows OS.

 

SAO - really incredible video, but didn't quite get what you were pointing to with that?

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Seems to me it's more of a problem of a bad relationship between Apple and Adobe (that damn Motion thing) than Xgrid being a "joke." I mean has anyone here really had any experience using Xgrid in a cluster situation? Highly doubtful as none of us are biotechnologists, rocket scientists or mathematicians. Also... Adobe has had PLENTY of time to make a Universal version or "upgrade" to AE7 and they haven't even addressed it I'm sure due to some kind of lame political internal thing (I'm assuming) with Apple.

 

I'd be curious to know if anyone from Adobe reads this; what is the deal?

 

 

snipit from one of the links above:

 

"To have these calculations run faster, we are now running them on a cluster of more than 200 computers, where each computer actually belongs to a different person, connected to the internet somewhere in the world. This allows us to run a calculation in 1 week instead of 1 year!!

 

The idea is to take advantage of all these computers sitting idle at night (and often during the day too), that could run these calculations for us. But it also has to be secure, and the calculations should stop when the normal user needs its computer at its full speed. So basically, you want it to be just like a screensaver, only popping up when you don't need your computer.

 

For this, Apple has written a very simple and elegant program called Xgrid. The communications are completety secure, it does not take any space on the hard drive, has no access to personal files, and has no access to the System, so no risk of crash, bug, corrupted file and no piracy/privacy problem."

Now how great would it be to apply this concept to a render farm for After Effects or any of the math-intensive software packages we run? You could commandeer every one of your friends and families computers over the internet to crunch on your renders... sorta. :P

Edited by nybe

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"I'm not going to get into a mac PC thing. It's just my opinion. I hate spotlight just because the shortcut for it conflicts with the shortcuts for zooming in & out of a canvas in PS & AI."

 

Just so you know, this can be very easily changed by right-clicking on the spotlight icon & changing the shortcut keys in the preferences.

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It's just my opinion. I hate spotlight just because the shortcut for it conflicts with the shortcuts for zooming in & out of a canvas in PS & AI.

If that's why you don't like it you don't even deserve to have it.

That's just my opinion.

 

-m

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supposedly, someday, AE will take advantage of Xgrid built into MacOSX.

 

indexworkflow20050412.gif

 

but first let's see how long it takes them to make and Intel native or Universal version of it. :huh:

 

Yeah, I thought X Grid was a possible solution when it was announced, but it doesn't seem to have gone anywhere. I always cringe when I see additions to operating systems and applications that require programmers to rewrite things to take advantage of them. Most of the time they are ignored (AltiVec, anyone?) and are used just to post impressive performance figures that 99% of people will never really see.

 

I'm sure any real programmer would roll his eyes at this, but I'd like to see this at the OS level and have it just "happen." No need to retool your apps to be aware of it, no special circumstances in order for it to work, no management, etc. It would also be cool if it had a built in interface to my flying car.

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Yeah, I thought X Grid was a possible solution when it was announced, but it doesn't seem to have gone anywhere. I always cringe when I see additions to operating systems and applications that require programmers to rewrite things to take advantage of them. Most of the time they are ignored (AltiVec, anyone?) and are used just to post impressive performance figures that 99% of people will never really see.

 

I'm sure any real programmer would roll his eyes at this, but I'd like to see this at the OS level and have it just "happen." No need to retool your apps to be aware of it, no special circumstances in order for it to work, no management, etc. It would also be cool if it had a built in interface to my flying car.

 

Hmm kind of broad and general.

If I'm not mistaken, isn't that how most software evolves? Programmers figure out how to best take advantage of new implementations of the OS. Not what suits the big companies politcaly (Ha hah, huh, made myself crack up)

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If that's why you don't like it you don't even deserve to have it.

That's just my opinion.

 

-m

I geuss it's a good thing that oppinions are like assholes then isn't it. everyones got one & they all stink!

 

I always cringe when I see additions to operating systems and applications that require programmers to rewrite things to take advantage of them. Most of the time they are ignored (AltiVec, anyone?) and are used just to post impressive performance figures that 99% of people will never really see.

 

amen

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One of the biggest bottlenecks for mograph and compositing is footage. Thats why CG works so well with render farms... cause it is "processer intensive." However when working with footage your biggest speed boost will be with your disk speed.

 

Thats why avid and discreet highly reccomend, or demand that you use thier storage. Not because its faster disks, but because the disk arrays are super quick.

 

If it were up to me I'd rather have a 2.0 ghz g5 with a crazy ass raid then a new shiney Quad with a single disk.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

six

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One of the biggest bottlenecks for mograph and compositing is footage. Thats why CG works so well with render farms... cause it is "processer intensive." However when working with footage your biggest speed boost will be with your disk speed.

 

Thats why avid and discreet highly reccomend, or demand that you use thier storage. Not because its faster disks, but because the disk arrays are super quick.

 

If it were up to me I'd rather have a 2.0 ghz g5 with a crazy ass raid then a new shiney Quad with a single disk.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

six

 

Diskspeed is only a factor on playback, i'm talking about CPU intensive tasks, that are applied and previewed on a frame basis. Besides, previewing is RAM based, once cached, those frames should be accessible always for the CPU's.

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Stop the creation of slow apps. I want instant gratification. I want more time spend in pubs.

 

Surely you jest... if AE becomes 16x faster, you'll spend the exact same amount of time in pubs. Typical comps will just get that much more intensive and complicated, and you'll have to catch up just like everyone else. Plug-in developers will make nicer, more complicated effects that will *still* take just-a-few-seconds to render a decent scene - not because it's necessarily needed, but because they can, like the proverbial dog licking his balls.

 

Not that I'm against more speed, of course. I'm dying to be able to get real time feedback while tweaking this or that. But faster software (or faster computers, or faster anything) never translated into more leisure time, or else the typical "mographer" from the early 80's would now be able to get all his work done in 1.26 minutes, drinking himself to oblivion in the local pub thru the rest of the day.

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Surely you jest... if AE becomes 16x faster, you'll spend the exact same amount of time in pubs. Typical comps will just get that much more intensive and complicated, and you'll have to catch up just like everyone else. Plug-in developers will make nicer, more complicated effects that will *still* take just-a-few-seconds to render a decent scene - not because it's necessarily needed, but because they can, like the proverbial dog licking his balls.

 

Not that I'm against more speed, of course. I'm dying to be able to get real time feedback while tweaking this or that. But faster software (or faster computers, or faster anything) never translated into more leisure time, or else the typical "mographer" from the early 80's would now be able to get all his work done in 1.26 minutes, drinking himself to oblivion in the local pub thru the rest of the day.

 

the man does have a point.

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