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AICP Southwest 2008


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#21 triplej96

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 10:55 PM

Wow excellent work guys. I had no idea trapcode soundkeys could be imported into C4D via text file and expressions. Still a little over my head but great to know its doable.

#22 ChrisC

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 01:33 AM

It's a cool looking piece, and the breakdown was a great read. Loved the bit about getting logos in .ai format where all they do is place a jpeg in a file and save as .ai. 'Hey, you said you wanted an Illustrator file and that's what I sent, right?' Gah.

Nifty trick with the area light masks too, I really thought the scene was a GI workout so it's interesting to hear that it's all area lights. It seems to be a bit of an unspoken secret that R11's GI is still not quite ready for animation use yet.

Cheers - Chris

#23 basilisk

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 05:33 PM

It seems to be a bit of an unspoken secret that R11's GI is still not quite ready for animation use yet.


Beg to differ - I have used it on a broadcast ad with very few problems. The problem here as I understand it was rendering 4500 frames of HD at the last minute for an immovable deadline. There are workarounds that can give some of the look of GI and save you a proportion of the rendertime, but given a little longer schedule GI would have been an option. A valid criticism is that distributing GI across a render farm might not be as efficient as non GI, as the prepass cannot be distributed, but you can still render a project in segments if you have multiple machines.

#24 the_Monkey

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 06:54 PM

Beg to differ - I have used it on a broadcast ad with very few problems. The problem here as I understand it was rendering 4500 frames of HD at the last minute for an immovable deadline. There are workarounds that can give some of the look of GI and save you a proportion of the rendertime, but given a little longer schedule GI would have been an option. A valid criticism is that distributing GI across a render farm might not be as efficient as non GI, as the prepass cannot be distributed, but you can still render a project in segments if you have multiple machines.

Absolutely true, Basilisk.
There still are some secrets though aren't there? For instance I didn't know that Full Animation mode rendered more passes the longer your render was. I was trying to render 1500F at a time and was getting 15 pre-passes. I later discovered this in the Help:

The prepasses are split into three segments (which prepass is currently being rendered is displayed in the Picture Viewer):

Prepass 1-3: These prepasses determine how many cache Record entries will be required for the full animaton and where these are located.
Prepass 4: The first and last frames of animation will be calculated.
Prepass 5-x: Each prepass halves the render time and calculates/interpolates the corresponding frame’s cache. Example: Your animation is 100 frames long. Prepass number 5 calculates/interpolates frame 50, prepass 6 calculates/interpolates frame 25 and 75, etc. This continues until all frames have been calculated/interpolated. Subsequently the full animation will be rendered without making any further changes to the cache.


Ok. Great... so how do I reduce that? How do I optimize my given settings? The answer was "I have no idea and I don't have time to find out now". It probably isn't fair to say "R11's GI is still not quite ready for animation use yet"... it is... but the complexity of the process is proportional to the complexity of the animation.

Take a look at this super-simple test. The room is being scaled up and the cube is being pushed through the floor. You can see that the cube is picking up light information from the outside of the room. I solved it by changing my cube animation to scale up from the floor instead of pass though it (as well as adding AO). I later found out that this could be fixed by enabling Distance Map in the render settings, but is not enabled by default. Awesome... but that just took me half a day to find that out. :)

These kinds of situations pop up in 3D all the time with Cloth, Dynamics, GI... anything that requires a ton of calculations. It still requires a wealth of knowledge on the part of the user to adapt to different scenarios. I think R11 Animation GI is VERY ready... it's that "wealth of knowledge" that is missing.

-m

Edited by the_Monkey, 08 December 2008 - 06:56 PM.


#25 basilisk

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Posted 08 December 2008 - 08:21 PM

Absolutely true, Basilisk.
There still are some secrets though aren't there? For instance I didn't know that Full Animation mode rendered more passes the longer your render was. I was trying to render 1500F at a time and was getting 15 pre-passes. I later discovered this in the Help:
Ok. Great... so how do I reduce that? How do I optimize my given settings? The answer was "I have no idea and I don't have time to find out now". It probably isn't fair to say "R11's GI is still not quite ready for animation use yet"... it is... but the complexity of the process is proportional to the complexity of the animation.

Take a look at this super-simple test. The room is being scaled up and the cube is being pushed through the floor. You can see that the cube is picking up light information from the outside of the room. I solved it by changing my cube animation to scale up from the floor instead of pass though it (as well as adding AO). I later found out that this could be fixed by enabling Distance Map in the render settings, but is not enabled by default. Awesome... but that just took me half a day to find that out. :)

These kinds of situations pop up in 3D all the time with Cloth, Dynamics, GI... anything that requires a ton of calculations. It still requires a wealth of knowledge on the part of the user to adapt to different scenarios. I think R11 Animation GI is VERY ready... it's that "wealth of knowledge" that is missing.

-m


Useful stuff there. Having everything in such a long timeline with no cuts is a pretty demanding test of any application. The cache calculations are designed to speed up renders by only updating bits that need updating frame by frame, the drawback being that long timelines might lead to incremental errors, and therefore take more checking, and calculations can vary depending on your start frame. It is a balance I guess.
Is there an advantage to rendering in shorter segments, but allowing overlaps, then cross fading between renders would smooth over any discrepancies?

I have noticed similar things to your light leak problems. Would it have still happened if the wall had physical thickness?

Edited by basilisk, 08 December 2008 - 08:40 PM.


#26 Colin@movecraft

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Posted 10 December 2009 - 10:13 PM

A year of study later and I *almost* understand everything that was done in this project. (still haven't gotten around to buying Lennart's camera tools) I feel like I will always be 2 years behind the bleeding cutting edge.

Still, I showed this post to some students today and was shocked one last time at how much info was packed in. Thanks again.

C

#27 PhAtlDesigns

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Posted 07 July 2010 - 02:49 PM

AICP Southwest 2008
Project Detail

So what is this?
I just finished working on an animation with Chris Smith (Sugar Film Production) for the southwest regional sponsors of AICP. The conference is supported by the donations of local businesses, and in exchange for their $ they get their logo/identity showcased in the intro of the show. That's what we made.

Posted Image
Movie Link (36mb)


So why are you telling me?
You've likely seen a few of these rolling around from previous years. The other AICP title sequences I've seen have ranged from brilliant to endurable. I would say the result of this project hovers very nicely in the middle of that spectrum. Aesthetically, I have quite a few things I would like to improve/change, however I was very happy with the planning and production of this project. Since so few tutorials cover the production aspects of the work I thought this would be an ideal job to share with the community.

--

Great, so what's the breakdown?
This was a remote job. The event was in Dallas. We had a little more than two weeks to complete it.

Length -- Roughly 2-3 mins. As long as it took to feature all the logos.
Format -- 1080i@29.97
Assets -- Apx 6 mins. of experimental HD footage provided by Sugar. / Apx 30->40 Logos provided by sponsors
Audio -- Listeningchair, a Dallas based sound studio, would be creating original music for the animation.

Animation would primarily need to be completed by myself on my 8-Core.
Chris had another 8-Core in Dallas dedicated to rendering scene files.


What are my general concerns?
1) I want it to be pretty.
2) I want it to have discernible parts.
3) I want it to have fluid motion.
4) I want it to fulfill it's purpose of showcasing the sponsors logos.
5) I don't want it to be boring.
6) I don't want to miss the deadline.

Those 6 concerns are probably in reverse order. Every decision I made ultimately came down to making sure these 6 things happened.


The Approach
We didn't have any boards for this job. Chris and I had originally had set out to use the piece as an opportunity to experiment. Other projects and circumstances gave us less time to experiment than we would have liked so at a certain point it became more about creating something clean, simple, and attractive.


The Look
We had both upgraded to C4D r11 and were very interested in trying out the new GI. We had both been inspired by Kai Perersen's tutorial about polygon lights and portals over at Cineversity (GI: Sampling Modes). As a C4D user I have kept my distance from GI in the past because of the insane render times and unpredictable results. After seeing Kai's walkthrough of the new GI we both decided that was a look we wanted to pursue.


Timing
Timing on this job was VERY important. Getting 30+ companies to deliver their logos to you in a timely manner is monumental task. Plus the deliverables were for an event. Events have unmovable deadlines. If you've never worked remotely before, it's more time consuming than you think. If you've never worked remotely on HD before, it's WAY more time consuming than you think. Compressing and uploading previews can easily occupy a third of your day. Just getting scenes *ready* to render can be a chore.

For this reason I HAD to create a standard that would allow me to measure my progress. Also, collaboration with the audio studio would require SOME sort of pre-planning even if we didn't have storyboards.


The AudioBoards
When you have an integrated audio/video project one of the two of you is always wanting the "other guy to start first". I would need the full two weeks to finish the animation/renders so I didn't have enough time to let listeningchair score the piece after the fact, BUT it wasn't really fair to ask them to just wing it with no input.

My favorite way to approach this task is to create a dummy track from a song that I think would be a good model for the final. If I have the time, I like to just wander around the city with my iPod until something "feels" right. I did just that and I found a great song that had plenty of energy and very different parts. It was a very long (6+ minute) track by Anders Trentemoller called Always Something Better. I managed and cut the piece down to 2.5 minute remix in Ableton Live and sent the following back to Sugar and Listeningchair.

Posted Image
Movielink (8mb)

Shortly after I sent this off to Dallas I received a first draft back from listeningchair. I was a little worried because I'd never worked with them before. The downside to AudioBoards are when you're working with a studio who either A) tries to copy the *sound* rather than the feeling/energy/timing... or even worse B) just misses completely. I was very pleased with what we got back from Listeningchair. Brian made it his own piece while retaining the spirit and timing of the original track.

Posted Image
Movielink (8.1mb)


Talking to Audio Guys
I was a breakbeat DJ for most of my 20's. Working with audio is where I developed my first love for waveforms. I found the transition from audio to 3d animation very easy because it was simply an extension of describing the world in waveforms. If you can speak waveform... you can speak to an audio guy (well engineers at least).

I gave him a few notes about what I would like to see changed. I wrote it down in words and erased it for almost 2 hours until I final decided to just send him a waveform. The gray waveform (below) was what I was shooting for and the blue represented what he gave back to me. They may look identical at first sight, but to someone who speaks "waveform" you can tell the differences immediately. Brain mentioned to me later at the event that he total "got" what I was asking and said the waveforms were helpful.

Posted Image
Posted Image

About halfway into the first week I received the "final" sponsor list and the number of bronze sponsors had doubled from last year. It threw my timing off a little bit, but it was pretty easy to get back on track by simply doubling the bronze section.


The Logos
I decided to get the logo work out of the way first. The first few days was a lot of Illustrator work (ever get an AI file that simply contained an embedded JPEG?). Several hours of pixel-pushing later... I finally had them all vectorized. After seeing them all together it became clear these separate identities lacked unification. The simplest and fastest solution I could think of was to reduce them to b/w.


Loosing the Color
I hate working in b/w. I learned about color from stage lighting and one of the better rules is that you never just throw white light on an actor or the stage. Rather you should blend complementary colors to create white light. It creates more interesting highlights and deeper shadows. This is the first time I have ever used completely desaturated values. I did so in the end because it was one less thing to keep track of, but ultimately I wish I hadn't.

Posted Image


The "Architecture"
I didn't really know where to start so I figured I better make something pretty flexible just in case. I knew I wanted each section to feel like it was in a larger space than the previous one. I would start each area with a simple 100sq box and then extrude it in 100 unit increments until I had a rough shell of what I wanted the space to look like. I would then attach different tiles and illuminated panels to that base mesh via a Cloner Object. I changed my mind quite a bit about depth and proportions so building with Cloners afforded me the ultimate in (re)configurability.

Posted Image

Additionally it allowed me to break my rooms apart in a variety of different ways. I never ended up actually doing it, but it was something that I kept in my back pocket in case we had some extra time and discovered the background required more action.

Posted ImagePosted Image
Movielink 1 (3mb), Movielink 2 (2.4mb)


SoundKeys
I really wanted to add some SoundKeys to the piece, but I wasn't sure if there was going to be time. I made some soundmaps over the weekend using a method I have described before on mograph.net. The short version is that I like to do my sync work in AE with Trapcode's SoundKeys.

After you've got your keys in AE, select them, copy-paste them into a txt file, and then open that file in C4D's Timeline via the Functions>ASCII Animation Import option. From there you can use the data however you like. I like assign the values to a P.y track of a Null object and then use an Xpresso tag to redistribute the values to other elements as needed (i.e. the P.y values are controlling the alphas to the bass and snare Materials in the Platinum section).

The next thing you need is some good markers. If you've ever tried to build more than a dozen markers in C4D it can make you want to stab your eyes out. For that reason I make a txt file of key data outside of C4D for beats and bars and then import that into the C4D Timeline in the same manner mentioned above. I then use those keys as Markers.

Too many keys starts to get confusing after a while so I divide my timeline into two parts (shown below). The Bottom timeline is static just for beats, bars, and special sections. The Upper timeline is in Automatic Mode and is used for editing waveforms and moving keys.

Posted Image



[because mograph.net won't let you post more than 10 images in a single post I have to split this into two]



What program did you use to make the visual audio thing you sent to the audio guys? I can see how that can be very useful and would love to try to use it in my workflow. Thanks, cheers.



#28 C.Smith

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 09:20 PM

Wait....I can't remember. Is THIS the AICP piece we made? Or was it THIS the piece we made? Hard to tell....can't remember

On the second one there is a on it so that has to be the real one, yes?
chris smith :: some of my work

#29 the_Monkey

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:39 PM

Or was it THIS the piece we made?

That's probably the best promotional video you could make for SteadyCam Pro.

*sigh*

-m

p.s. the © is pretty fuckin' ballsy. ;)

Edited by the_Monkey, 22 July 2010 - 11:41 PM.


#30 C.Smith

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 12:37 AM

That's probably the best promotional video you could make for SteadyCam Pro.


or even an easy ease.
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#31 froj

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Posted 23 July 2010 - 10:15 AM

or even an easy ease.


Haha, atleast it was a 'fun, no commercial use' project. Blatant

#32 planetfour

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 08:38 PM

Wait....I can't remember. Is THIS the AICP piece we made? Or was it THIS the piece we made? Hard to tell....can't remember

On the second one there is a on it so that has to be the real one, yes?


whoa! how did they get your scenefile?! Because it's more than just a blatant rip, it's either straight from your c4d file, or they put way too much time into reproducing your look that could have been spent designing.

I'm assuming it was released somewhere at some point as a friendly gesture to the learning community, but the bored afternoon renderer in me would love to hear some dastardly story fit to lambaste someone with.

#33 ibgoinaj

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Posted 15 August 2010 - 02:10 AM

Great stuff, thanks for posting this!
Forget it Donny, your out of your element.

#34 Birdy3000

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Posted 21 August 2010 - 08:46 PM

I've only just joined Mograph and this post already makes it worthwhile. Cheers for such an informative rundown.

Birdy

#35 highfive

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Posted 18 October 2010 - 07:57 PM

Great stuff monkey, thanks for sharing all of this. Juggling time and talent is one of the hardest things to do in this job I think and workflow tips can be 10x more useful than knowing how to use the latest plugin.

And for anyone who knows xpresso...Ive exported my txt file out of AE and edited it to fit. I select my xpresso tag in the timeline and do Functions > ASCII animation import, and it prompts me to select how its set up (separated by comma, tab, etc.). I put a comma after every amount value (not frame) so I chose comma. The problem happens when I click ok; it adds a blank item to my xgroup which seems to contain no data at all. If im in over my head just let me know and ill figure it out on my own time, but if its something simple im missing then id really appreciate the help :o)

P.S. My text file is setup in this format (based off this sites instructions: http://maxon.digital...fterinter=true), only with soundkeys data instead of position data:

8 45.0092,
9 48.6189,
10 47.522,
11 47.2482,
12 49.6289,
13 52.6247, etc.

Its showing up funny on the forum but theres three spaces between the frame and value

Edited by highfive, 18 October 2010 - 08:01 PM.


#36 JMRicks

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 09:07 PM

Just wanted to bump this and say thanks for this again. I was trying to describe to my friend the way you worked with "audio guys," but it was much easier to just show him your post.

#37 seth_eckert

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 06:23 PM

This is really awesome :) thanks for the great breakdown




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