19 replies to this topic

[Zickar]

Maybe we can post more copycat works here and to get the ball rolling how about this

[Kmksunfire]

http://dennytu.wordp...at-controversy/

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=7cNkk_4yevw

Edited by Kmksunfire, 02 February 2012 - 10:45 PM.

[Binky]

Maybe we can post more copycat works here

I think you've got half a plan here. Are you looking to shame the copycats? Because the likelihood of them ever seeing this thread is low. And the likelihood of effectively changing anyone's minds about the work that's already been done is also pretty low. Spots like this aren't typically concepted by the people who end up having to make them.

Post your examples here, but if you want anything to come of this, you have to get a ton of them, and then you have to actively parade this thread outside of the small community here. Otherwise, the right people will never even get the message and you're just preaching to the choir.

[theta]

http://www.youthough...ldntnotice.com/

[Zickar]

I think you've got half a plan here. Are you looking to shame the copycats? Because the likelihood of them ever seeing this thread is low. And the likelihood of effectively changing anyone's minds about the work that's already been done is also pretty low. Spots like this aren't typically concepted by the people who end up having to make them.

Post your examples here, but if you want anything to come of this, you have to get a ton of them, and then you have to actively parade this thread outside of the small community here. Otherwise, the right people will never even get the message and you're just preaching to the choir.

I didn't plan this at first because when I saw the first piece yesterday I never thought I would see the same thing today , I don't know what will become of this thread apart from maybe sharing copied stuff . kind of like joe la pompe with ads

[anothername]

It seems kind of uncool to post that stuff without context. In the first post I am assuming that the first vid is the original and the second is the copy but who really knows which is the original? Maybe both spots are part of the same campaign and have just been localized for different territories. Maybe example B was just some guy copying guy A for the challenge of reconstructing the project and he was just posting it for his buddies.

If I saw something posted with info like studio A spot from 2010 for product X, and studio B spot from 2011 for product Y, and they are the same then it seems a bit more fair to call someone out.

[tvp]

It seems kind of uncool to post that stuff without context. In the first post I am assuming that the first vid is the original and the second is the copy but who really knows which is the original? Maybe both spots are part of the same campaign and have just been localized for different territories. Maybe example B was just some guy copying guy A for the challenge of reconstructing the project and he was just posting it for his buddies.

If I saw something posted with info like studio A spot from 2010 for product X, and studio B spot from 2011 for product Y, and they are the same then it seems a bit more fair to call someone out.

I have to agree, especially with the first statement here about posting stuff out of context. I can't tell you how many times I've been shown some spot on YouTube at a gig and asked to "make it like that". Many times it's because the client has told the company they want it to "look like that one spot with the..." and been very adamant about their request. Adamant meaning, their attitude is "make it like that or we'll kill the job and take it somewhere else". Unfortunately in this economy, most people aren't in a position to reply back, "...go ahead and take it somewhere else". -Just saying.

Edited by tvp, 03 February 2012 - 07:42 PM.

[Binky]

I have to agree, especially with the first statement here about posting stuff out of context. I can't tell you how many times I've been shown some spot on YouTube at a gig and asked to "make it like that". Many times it's because the client has told the company they want it to "look like that one spot with the..." and been very adamant about their request. Adamant meaning, their attitude is "make it like that or we'll kill the job and take it somewhere else". Unfortunately in this economy, most people aren't in a position to reply back, "...go ahead and take it somewhere else". -Just saying.

I'd disagree, in the sense that a ripoff is still theft, and the people responsible, for the decision AND the execution, should be held accountable. The worst kind of shit happens when people are "just following orders", and while stealing someone's idea for a client isn't as bad as cops beating protestors for banks, it's stlll a matter of individual accountability that should never be used as an excuse. If your clients are too dumb to know right from wrong, just educate them and don't be a pussy about it. Hiding behind assholes is NOT an acceptable alternative.

Thieves SHOULD be re-educated, and if shaming is a start to that, then so be it. But I still maintain that this is sorta the wrong place to try to do that effectively. Who's gonna see it?

[este.eri]

I'd disagree, in the sense that a ripoff is still theft, and the people responsible, for the decision AND the execution, should be held accountable. The worst kind of shit happens when people are "just following orders", and while stealing someone's idea for a client isn't as bad as cops beating protestors for banks, it's stlll a matter of individual accountability that should never be used as an excuse. If your clients are too dumb to know right from wrong, just educate them and don't be a pussy about it. Hiding behind assholes is NOT an acceptable alternative.

Thieves SHOULD be re-educated, and if shaming is a start to that, then so be it. But I still maintain that this is sorta the wrong place to try to do that effectively. Who's gonna see it?

fucking right man! I agree, but what about when you are presented with boards? are you to research every project handed to you for execution to see if that look was stolen? not that this applies to the samples here. All I know is that the artist is not always involved in wrong doing. There is so much shit out there to keep track of true originality.

[Binky]

fucking right man! I agree, but what about when you are presented with boards? are you to research every project handed to you for execution to see if that look was stolen? not that this applies to the samples here. All I know is that the artist is not always involved in wrong doing. There is so much shit out there to keep track of true originality.

It's hard to draw definite lines in the sand that apply to everyone in all situations. But thankfully, for each of us, it's really a matter of personal responsibility and maintaining our own integrity. If you're an animator and you're handed some boards, what level of action on your part is acceptable to you? Clearly, if you're happy to put those boards into production without knowing where they came from, then you won't be compelled into further action. Somewhere down the road, you may find you were unknowingly involved in something that embarasses you. And at that point, if you're to maintain integrity, you'll redefine your responsibilities and your level of involvement will change.

Catching some animator out on failing to vet a rush job might be a useful peer pressure tactic, but only as a way to foster a culture of creatives who will man up and educate their clients on the ethics of the business. I don't think we need to worry so much about who gets the blame if instead we concern ourselves with our own moral imperatives and educating those who haven't educated themselves. I mean, this is basically how society works, so it's true for all sorts of things in life that matter.

For the sake of honesty, personally I've taken jobs where I didn't understand who I was working for or what my work was supporting, and have subsequently regretted it. So now I make a reasonable attempt to vet jobs as they come in. I won't take jobs in support of companies or causes I'm morally opposed to (but then I don't exactly do extensive research on these clients). And if clients I've taken on start asking for inappropriate things, I do my best to steer them away from it, which usually just means outlining the benefits of doing something original and thoughtful, or of sending a message we can all feel good about instead of one we feel scummy about. And if the discussions don't work out, I finish the job and politely cut ties. It's not a perfect system, but I'm content in my actions, and it seems a good way to develop a satisfying and agreeable client roster, as opposed to one that makes me miserable.

I'd really hope someone else out there would be able to lay down their brilliant scheme for dealing with this stuff. Surely we all need suggestions. My head's not even resolved on the ethics of intellectual property, really. It's mushy territory.

(Wrote this at 3am. Sorry.)

Edited by Binky, 06 February 2012 - 07:24 AM.

[iline]

Er no, I'll tolerate no witch trials here. We all have shit projects behind us and for a lot of us, ahead of us. Don't accuse people of plagiarism in a world where it's patently impossible to be original. I am not interested in adding to this debate but if people are accusing each other of plagiarism, someone's going to take offence and someone else will have to eat humble pie. Don't do it.

[destro]

I've found it's the "Golden Rule" that makes this such a tricky issue to resolve..."He who has the Gold makes the Rules".

I'll always try to re-interpret an idea if I'm presented with a "make something like this" brief. Straight out copies are a no-no for me, but basing an idea on something that already exists is very common. Most businesses like working with ideas that have a proven track record.

I'd rather do purely creative work but then I think I'd be an Artist rather than what I am...a Commercial Artist.

[Binky]

Er no, I'll tolerate no witch trials here. We all have shit projects behind us and for a lot of us, ahead of us. Don't accuse people of plagiarism in a world where it's patently impossible to be original.

Originality is on a sliding scale and it seems pretty clear by the given example that we're talking about imitation, not inspiration. If you use your head it's pretty easy to discern the intention of most examples. So it's a good discussion to have because it helps us maintain a strong sense of what's good and what's not. What's right and what's wrong. Suggesting that it's a witch trial and that originality is impossible is an awfully thinly veiled way to evade and shut down a discussion that might highlight your own indiscretions. We've all let ourselves get cornered into questionable projects, but we certainly don't have to accept that as a future reality. Now is always a great time to man up to the challenge.

[iline]

Originality is on a sliding scale and it seems pretty clear by the given example that we're talking about imitation, not inspiration. If you use your head it's pretty easy to discern the intention of most examples. So it's a good discussion to have because it helps us maintain a strong sense of what's good and what's not. What's right and what's wrong. Suggesting that it's a witch trial and that originality is impossible is an awfully thinly veiled way to evade and shut down a discussion that might highlight your own indiscretions. We've all let ourselves get cornered into questionable projects, but we certainly don't have to accept that as a future reality. Now is always a great time to man up to the challenge.

Please illuminate me, which indiscretions of mine? As Destro said after me, there are plenty of projects where you are sent a video and told to 'do like this' - failure to deliver almost exactly what the client liked from XXX company's video or even their own previous campiagn, is not an option. I NEVER look at bad graphics work on TV and complain, "Oh the guy who made this is such a copycat/untalented/plain awful" because I know that behind every bad project are bad circumstances. Your witch trial proposal would ultimately finger the artists working on those bad projects, not the client - whose sole intention was to inherit the buzz from someone else's bright idea. That's not helpful and I seriously have an issue with you trying to institute bitching here. I like this forum, I like helping people and being helped on here. Don't ruin it.

[iline]

Look, I agree that sometimes stuff is directly lifted and that is good for no-one. Also, most of us would alter the look of stuff we're asked to do from other people's work, using it as a launch-point. But if originality is on such a sliding scale (myself saying it is IMPOSSIBLE to be original) then only projects of the most ludicrously close outcome could ever be called plagiarism.

This is so rare an occurrence, I feel that it's a waste of time to point out examples. The internet has a milisecond-long attention span and these cloned projects will fade away instantly. Just keep your gun in its holster, cowboy.

[Binky]

I know that behind every bad project are bad circumstances. Your witch trial proposal would ultimately finger the artists working on those bad projects, not the client - whose sole intention was to inherit the buzz from someone else's bright idea.

I think we have basically the same concerns, but either I'm not explaining myself well, or we're hearing each other in angry tones. Maybe both. Either is bad.

We agree that, having done these projects in the past, we all have indiscretions. We agree that ignorant clients are usually the instigators. What I'm basically saying is that we have an obligation to ourselves and to our peers to make an effort to educate these sorts of clients on the ethics of intellectual property and moreso on the benefit of original/custom content. Because they're not gonna teach themselves, and it hurts us, individually, and collectively, to produce their imitative garbage.

The mind of a hack businessperson is kinda like: "I have to be able to project the outcome of X if I'm to form a business model around it for success. I can project well the outcome of things which have already been tried, and not so well the outcome of new or untested things. So I'll look for the most successful example of X already in existence, and copy it as well as possible for a more likely and predictable success." Proven = good. Uncertain = bad. To a hack, this makes sense. A better bargain would likely be to spend some effort to understand why examples of X succeeded and then modify them for even greater success (or to PAY someone to do that for them, wink wink). And indeed, this is how ideas evolve for greater benefit in the hands of leaders, or how ideas stagnate and devolve into crap in the hands of hacks. Crap ideas aren't worth nearly as much to your clients or anyone else, and facilitating theft is mostly indefensible, so education is pretty much a win-win, don't you think?

Edited by Binky, 10 February 2012 - 04:36 AM.

[Zickar]

I've been handed a lot of projects I'm supposed to do like . Actually I'm working on one right now . You might rip off camera animations , you might rip off the mood , you might rip off some compositing techniques , you might copy the timing of something but to actually rip it frame by frame is not cool . I always start with something I have to do like I will show you some of the examples I worked on and will tell you what it has been copied from

When I started working on this Clip I was given the Onion NEws network and The Colbert Report as reference . The end product is completly different

This example is more famous because it has been ripped off many times from the SyFy Channel but still it held certain originality .


I have more examples but some of them have references that aren't so known or aren't easy to track back .. my point is that although its common practice for a client or a boss to say do like that its rare that they would want a frame by frame replica .. Usualy its just a frame to work in .

I contacted both creators of the clip , one (which uploaded his clip earlier) said its cool to have people inspired by his work and the other didn't bother reply or even add a link ... I highly doubt its part of the same campaign and I just saw one of his work ripped off today from Dubai One TV along with the music as well ... Just take a look at these . Really a shame .





The most worrying part is that this guy is not even bothering finding music or coming up with camera moves or animations of any sort ... This goes beyond inspiration and copying to Cloning

Edited by Zickar, 10 February 2012 - 06:33 PM.

[iline]

@Binky: I concur, totally. It's a lot easier when the clients are small and approachable, but working for TBWA on a tight deadline leaves almost no room for discussions of ethics whatsoever. I feign inability to recreate the other studio's graphics half the time, or feign excitement about an experimental technique that blows away the other studio's original concept, but if you join a project post-concepting stage, you don't get that kind of input. Chances are, if you're working for an ad agency, you get almost no input into the signed-off boards at all. If ethics were really my biggest concern I wouldn't work on adverts at all, and I hate myself for helping to advertise Skrillex enough as it is.

Try educating those whose ignorant outlook funnelled them into their advertising career in the first place? I'd rather say no, but these days, ethics can't win out against feeding your one-year old daughter or taking your girl out on Valentine's.

peace and love

[este.eri]

I think everyone should take a real good look at this video. It's easy to judge. Some people are more "authentic" because they are more succesful at hidding their sources.

Edited by este.eri, 16 February 2012 - 10:12 PM.

[basilisk]

I think some of these examples may be learners setting themselves the task of recreating something as an exercise. If they don't make money from it or claim originality then it is probably no big deal. If you are 3D modeller/animator rather than a designer, this is probably a useful exercise, as you may always be working from someone else's concepts.