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#21 Guest_jayse_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 12:02 AM

loved it and hated it at the same time...

but i'll always love Star Wars - as long as you can let the kid out in ya - you'll love it. If you have expectations - you might be disappointed.

:-)

all in all it was quite fun - and that's what it's all about. (although some think it's a religion)

// jayse

#22 Guest_jayse_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 12:05 AM

ps - Tread - hehe - i love your post... agreed. But the trend now definitely IS to hate it all. Haven't you noticed lately? (Makes ya cool)

True that tho - Star Wars is just too awesome.

and YODA KICKS ASS!


// jayse

#23 Guest_Tread_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 12:15 AM

right on Jayse. Screw the peeps that can only be cool by hating. Try being a life lover for a change. Damnit.

I dunno why I'm so pissed off about this.

#24 Guest_pixelthief_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 12:16 AM

haha. I agree somewhat, tread. But your case breaks down a bit here:

I mean c'mon, arguing over the acting is so moot, and I think it's just an excuse to hate something that is really great. And, what the hell, 'It's amazing how low our expectations have been driven.' Give me a break. Have some appreciation for the history that George Lucas has made.

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Acting is moot now? Please. I agree w/ a lot of what superfro said, too. w/ regards to expectations, he's spot on. George Lucas made history, true dat. But it's just that--history. You're only as good as your last film.

I had a great time watching this flick. Flaws and all. Lucas is a shitty director, tho. And a visionary at the same time. Weird.

#25 Guest_fredcamino_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 12:40 AM

oh i totally disagree with tread on this one. these movies are empirically terrible. the disillusion comes from the lovers, not the haters. i remember when the first one came out and i was super excited, and after seeing it i tried my best to convince myself i liked it... like "hey the music was really cool", and "that end battle was awesome". but i finally realized i was lying to myself and that no cool end battle with cool music could make up for the terrible acting, the 30+ minute pod race with espn guys, the meandering and pointless dialogue, the stupid characters, the lame attempts at humor... the movie was the worst thing ever made! there really is no denying how bad these movies are.

#26 Guest_ESC_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 01:01 AM

Did Natalie Portman look hot? :D :P

I'll wait a week or two untill the hype dies down and then go watch it in peace without some freaks stabbing with a lightsaber. Not that I have anything against these fans. Except some get out of hand. :D

#27 Guest_govinda_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 02:32 AM

Here's a post by someone who hasn't seen it. But going in, one thing gets me. Plus this thread will fade out by the time I finally get around to seeing it.

When I saw the first Star Wars I was obsessed by the Time Magazine article on it. I carried it everywhere, and the film paid off in every way for a kid. It made my summer. I knew then that the big difference between it and other sci-fi movies--up to that time my favorite was Logan's Run because of Jennie Agutter--were the special effects, the grand quest of it, and most of all, that the worlds in it weren't all clean and polished. Tatooine had dusty ships, dusty aliens, dusty sandpeople, dusty dust. 'Things look lived-in' was how it was said again and again.

Then you got Blade Runner, Mad Max, Dune and all the rest that played off the costuming and the lived-in-ness of the future and naturally took it to further extremes.

Meantime, Star Wars stayed exactly where it was. To my eye, the world has passed Lucas by in production detailing and antiquing to the point that the SW universe looks ridiculously polished and neutered, kind of a puritan future in which Padme, well, I've read one spoiler that made me laugh out loud about the way she gets how she gets in a sexless, fartless, shitless, irony-less world.

You could say it's branding, but there's a reason why we don't see the same brands doing the same things they did in 1977. It's because people ask for more than they did then, or would someone like to debate the relative detail and depth of Deadwood vs. The Outlaw Josey Wales.

#28 Guest_superFrofessional_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 03:03 AM

tread, no one's hating on star wars, hombre. I'm betting the one thing everyone on this board would agree is that the star wars legacy is the friggin bomb. but it's fair to say that as a film, I thought this one was no good. that doesn't mean lucas wasn't a seminal director, it just means I didn't like this series of films. star wars and empire strikes back are still in my top 10 films of all times. I've read most of the books, two of the comic series, and still have a darth vader action-figure carrying case at my mom's house. that's just how I do.

and I still thought these 3 films were bad. but just because I don't like a few of the songs, doesn't mean I hate the album. or the band.

#29 Guest_Tread_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 04:09 AM

werd. Sorry, just got a bit defensive.

#30 Guest_vitaminj_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 05:45 AM

Why are you guys such haters? Can't you just appreciate Star Wars for what it is? I'm not a junkie by any means, but when people say that these movies are terrible, they are extremely delusioned. It's the greatest, most imaginative story possibly ever written, and much less, manifested into 6 movies. I mean c'mon, arguing over the acting is so moot, and I think it's just an excuse to hate something that is really great. And, what the hell, 'It's amazing how low our expectations have been driven.' Give me a break. Have some appreciation for the history that George Lucas has made.

Bleh. Haters.

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i love the originals. absolutely love them. lets not give lucas too much credit here either, he took akira kurosawa films, most notably "the hidden fortress", and set it in space. the comparisons are uncanny, he did not pull this out of his ass by any stretch. so i certainly cannot grant him the title of 'genius' as some do. but borrowed story aside, he did do a great job adapting it. the story was compelling, the characters were solid and the effects were groundbreaking.

the stale dialogue is just the way it is, i have no beef with that. how can you make going to some space station to pick up some weird alien power converters sound good? you can't, no one can. dialogue is not the problem.

what is the problem? i won't go into the 'selling out' argument, that's a whole other discussion. i'm going to talk about the fundamental problems with the films themselves, and what could have been done better to live up to the originals:

pacing. (haven't seen the new one, but it applies to the first two) it was all over the place. some things crept along while others blew by in both movies. take the pod race in the first one. while the effects were mind-blowingly awesome, how fuckin long do we need to sit through it before we can get back to moving the story along. check out the beginning of 'a new hope' also. look how we are thrust into the action right away, and the story reveals itself from there. compare that with the boring opening of 'phantom menace'. now make a dozen more comparisons like that and you've got what i'm talking about. they just don't move along the way they should.

spirituality. the 'force' was so magical. after watching the originals, the myth of the force was so compelling. wow, what an amazing concept, the force. what is it? can i feel it? where does it come from? oh, well let's answer that in the new movies by saying it's mitoclorians or whatever the fuck. thanks for ripping out all the spirituality of the first saga and pissing on it. now all the force means is that you have a high volume of some bullshit in your blood. poor, poor choice. "soon you'll hear them talking to you..." ugh...

character issues. obviously jar-jar. even if you love the new movies you have to give me that one. most annoying character i think i've ever seen, and a complete departure from the more restrained and tasteful comic relief found in chewy, c3po and r2d2. just the wrong damn direction entirely. but i'm sure he sold a lot of lunchboxes...

darth maul. his badass fight scenes aside, we get introduced to him WAY to quickly and then he's killed off immediately. a friend of mine put it best: remember the feeling you has as a kid, when darth vader first appeared on screen. he marched down the corridors with the perfect intense music accompanying him. his screen presence was just dominating. where was that in phantom menace. it was like "oh, by the way, here's this badass crazy guy who can kill people". not a dramatic build up or a grand entrance, just plop. he was really cool while he lasted, but meh...

anakin. was way too young and iritating in the first one. an older kid would have worked much much better, been more convincing and believable in what he was doing, and ultimately far less annoying. the older anakin is completely wooden in delivery, and poor natalie portman tries to do her best opposite that hat rack, but it's futile. he had his moments, such as when he went on his rampage to avenge his mother, and a few other tidbits, but ultimately was unbelievable, the love story being particularly hard to swallow. i believed han and leia...

speaking of han, where is the han solo character in the new flicks. there isn't one. han was a true character. we can relate to him. he starts out as a sleazeball, a gambler, up to debt in his eyeballs, who's just trying to save his own ass and score with the hot chick in the meantime. later his true colors shine and he actually has a character arc. he's a great compliment to luke, and brings a necessary balance that the new movies completely lack. after all, he's human. he gives us a sense of reality, something we can grasp onto in such a fictional world. we just don't have anybody like that now. it's very hard to relate to these characters. solo, and his interactions with the characters in the originals helped bridge that disconnect, and really gave the entire trilogy an entry point. and he was just a cool character in general, a well played one, which is more than i can say for some of these characters...

i already mentioned that i have no beef with the bad dialogue. well, except for the gratuitous inserts from unnecessary side characters like the "espn" guys as someone here put it... my beef is that even with such stale things to say, the original cast did a much better job. they faultered in some areas too, they weren't perfect, but they sold it. these characters are not selling it to me at all.

sam L. damnit man. just don't do that. he's not fit for a star wars role. he kicks ass in movies like pulp fiction and the like, but don't make him say things like "so, he is the chosen one". it just doesn't work coming from him.

i think that's enough on that aspect.

finally, going overboard. having anakin build c3po is hokey. having a baby greedo is also. trying to tie in all this shit in and allude to the other movies is just unnecessary. we don't need the origin of every fuckin thing we see in the latter episodes. the important elements are anakin, kenobi, the emperor, fett, etc. he might as well have a baby han solo in there. i know i just praised his character, but we don't need to meet him any sooner than we do now. same goes for a lot of these little things lucas tries to include and give a backstory to.

i also think it's shitty that he went back in to the old movies and added things to try and erase the obvious seam between the two sagas. these trilogies are completely different and always will be. either remake the new ones so they live up to the old, or remake the old to be like the new. they absolutely do not fit together as a single epic right now, so don't even try to cover your tracks with 'special editions'.

both trilogies work fine in their own right. i can sit and watch these new movies and leave the theater content with what i saw. a good story told to a decent degree, some cool action and top-notch effects. i can walk away saying i had fun. but i can never lump them together with the old classics as a complete package...

that's why you can call me a 'hater' if you want to. but as someone else said earlier, it's really all out of love. the star wars universe does own, it was just portrayed in a way i found disappointing in the newer series.

so sorry for the long post, omg. geez, so sorry...

#31 Guest_fredcamino_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 08:14 AM

whoa. vitaminj. now if only you could put that power to good.

#32 Guest_elmyr_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 10:34 AM

"But the trend now definitely IS to hate it all. Haven't you noticed lately? (Makes ya cool)"

Sorry, you're absolutely right. These hateful trendy types also picked on such classics as 'Gigli', "Gothika" and most of RobinWilliams' output.

Just desperate to be cool - how pathetic they are.

:P

#33 Guest_Tread_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 01:36 PM

well said VitaminJ. I can agree.

#34 Guest_Logan_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 01:58 PM

i am going to FORCE choke anyone who doesnt recognize how good that movie was.

that movie was great, and that is being said by someone who thinks the first 2 sucked.

all hail XSI! i cant wait for siggraph lectures and scene breakdowns.

#35 Guest_finegrit_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 01:59 PM

he took akira kurosawa films, most notably "the hidden fortress", and set it in space.  the comparisons are uncanny

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Now that's a little sharp. Are we going to smack down Kurosawa for setting Shakespeare in Japan? Lucas didn't just set Hidden Fortress in space, he really did create a world and a world view around Star Wars was that totally unique in film up to that point. As for his skills as a director, I'll stay out of this one...

#36 Guest_Sao_Bento_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 03:09 PM

i love the originals.  absolutely love them.  lets not give lucas too much credit here either, he took akira kurosawa films, most notably "the hidden fortress", and set it in space.  the comparisons are uncanny, he did not pull this out of his ass by any stretch.  so i certainly cannot grant him the title of 'genius' as some do.  but borrowed story aside, he did do a great job adapting it.  the story was compelling, the characters were solid and the effects were groundbreaking.

the stale dialogue is just the way it is, i have no beef with that.  how can you make going to some space station to pick up some weird alien power converters sound good?  you can't, no one can.  dialogue is not the problem.

what is the problem?  i won't go into the 'selling out' argument, that's a whole other discussion.  i'm going to talk about the fundamental problems with the films themselves, and what could have been done better to live up to the originals:

pacing.  (haven't seen the new one, but it applies to the first two)  it was all over the place.  some things crept along while others blew by in both movies.  take the pod race in the first one.  while the effects were mind-blowingly awesome, how fuckin long do we need to sit through it before we can get back to moving the story along.  check out the beginning of 'a new hope' also.  look how we are thrust into the action right away, and the story reveals itself from there.  compare that with the boring opening of 'phantom menace'.  now make a dozen more comparisons like that and you've got what i'm talking about.  they just don't move along the way they should.

spirituality.  the 'force' was so magical.  after watching the originals, the myth of the force was so compelling.  wow, what an amazing concept, the force.  what is it?  can i feel it?  where does it come from?  oh, well let's answer that in the new movies by saying it's mitoclorians or whatever the fuck.  thanks for ripping out all the spirituality of the first saga and pissing on it.  now all the force means is that you have a high volume of some bullshit in your blood.  poor, poor choice.  "soon you'll hear them talking to you..." ugh...

character issues.  obviously jar-jar.  even if you love the new movies you have to give me that one.  most annoying character i think i've ever seen, and a complete departure from the more restrained and tasteful comic relief found in chewy, c3po and r2d2.  just the wrong damn direction entirely.  but i'm sure he sold a lot of lunchboxes... 

darth maul.  his badass fight scenes aside, we get introduced to him WAY to quickly and then he's killed off immediately.  a friend of mine put it best: remember the feeling you has as a kid, when darth vader first appeared on screen.  he marched down the corridors with the perfect intense music accompanying him.  his screen presence was just dominating.  where was that in phantom menace.  it was like "oh, by the way, here's this badass crazy guy who can kill people".  not a dramatic build up or a grand entrance, just plop.  he was really cool while he lasted, but meh... 

anakin.  was way too young and iritating in the first one.  an older kid would have worked much much better, been more convincing and believable in what he was doing, and ultimately far less annoying.  the older anakin is completely wooden in delivery, and poor natalie portman tries to do her best opposite that hat rack, but it's futile.  he had his moments, such as when he went on his rampage to avenge his mother, and a few other tidbits, but ultimately was unbelievable, the love story being particularly hard to swallow.  i believed han and leia...

speaking of han, where is the han solo character in the new flicks.  there isn't one.  han was a true character.  we can relate to him.  he starts out as a sleazeball, a gambler, up to debt in his eyeballs, who's just trying to save his own ass and score with the hot chick in the meantime.  later his true colors shine and he actually has a character arc.  he's a great compliment to luke, and brings a necessary balance that the new movies completely lack.  after all, he's human.  he gives us a sense of reality, something we can grasp onto in such a fictional world.  we just don't have anybody like that now.  it's very hard to relate to these characters.  solo, and his interactions with the characters in the originals helped bridge that disconnect, and really gave the entire trilogy an entry point.  and he was just a cool character in general, a well played one, which is more than i can say for some of these characters...

i already mentioned that i have no beef with the bad dialogue.  well, except for the gratuitous inserts from unnecessary side characters like the "espn" guys as someone here put it... my beef is that even with such stale things to say, the original cast did a much better job.  they faultered in some areas too, they weren't perfect, but they sold it.  these characters are not selling it to me at all.

sam L.  damnit man.  just don't do that.  he's not fit for a star wars role.  he kicks ass in movies like pulp fiction and the like, but don't make him say things like "so, he is the chosen one".  it just doesn't work coming from him.

i think that's enough on that aspect.

finally, going overboard. having anakin build c3po is hokey.  having a baby greedo is also.  trying to tie in all this shit in and allude to the other movies is just unnecessary.  we don't need the origin of every fuckin thing we see in the latter episodes.  the important elements are anakin, kenobi, the emperor, fett, etc.  he might as well have a baby han solo in there.  i know i just praised his character, but we don't need to meet him any sooner than we do now.  same goes for a lot of these little things lucas tries to include and give a backstory to.

i also think it's shitty that he went back in to the old movies and added things to try and erase the obvious seam between the two sagas.  these trilogies are completely different and always will be.  either remake the new ones so they live up to the old, or remake the old to be like the new.  they absolutely do not fit together as a single epic right now, so don't even try to cover your tracks with 'special editions'.

both trilogies work fine in their own right.  i can sit and watch these new movies and leave the theater content with what i saw.  a good story told to a decent degree, some cool action and top-notch effects.  i can walk away saying i had fun.  but i can never lump them together with the old classics as a complete package...

that's why you can call me a 'hater' if you want to.  but as someone else said earlier, it's really all out of love.  the star wars universe does own, it was just portrayed in a way i found disappointing in the newer series.

so sorry for the long post, omg.  geez, so sorry...

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No mention of the blatant use of racial stereotypes as the defining characteristic of so many characters?

#37 Guest_esag_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 04:52 PM

So much passion for this movie in any case.
Looking at the trailer, it seems to me that it s gonna be beautiful. i m not even looking at the characters/scenario since i saw jar jar for the first time. but the universe is still here. I can t wait to see it!

#38 Guest_vitaminj_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 06:57 PM

Now that's a little sharp. Are we going to smack down Kurosawa for setting Shakespeare in Japan? Lucas didn't just set Hidden Fortress in space, he really did create a world and a world view around Star Wars was that totally unique in film up to that point. As for his skills as a director, I'll stay out of this one...

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you're absolutely right. i came on a little strong there. but some people hold lucas on such a high pedestal and defend his every choice to the death, i was just trying to take him down a peg slightly. i didn't mean to berate his whole universe. i love what he made, and i agree that what he created is completely original and unique. i wouldn't have written such an embarassingly long post about it *blush*, if i didn't.

there was just this shithead in college who would blindly defend every little thing, it was so annoying. you'd mention something lame about the new movies and he'd be like "well, lucas was trying to do this..." or "he always wanted this to be like that..." i don't think so. but even if that were true, i think he just made some artistic decisions that nobody had the balls to criticize because it was george lucas. and since he now has enough money to do whatever he wants, he didn't have the enormous pressure he had going into 'a new hope'.

"i am going to FORCE choke anyone who doesnt recognize how good that movie was." - Logan

- have NOT seen the new one. my little rant referred to the first two. i really hope you're right and it doesn't apply this time around. ;)

and Sao: yeah, let's not even get started on that one...

#39 Guest_FlipSwitch_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 07:05 PM

too many peeps sippin on the "HATORADE" in this thread...REKONIZE! B)

#40 Guest_StevieGJon_*

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Posted 20 May 2005 - 07:29 PM

i dont know about anyone else, but my crowd actually started to laugh at the movie. any anakin padme scene become a fucking joke. My favorite part in the whole film though was when Darth clangs out of those shackles, walking like he waas frankenstien...and to put the cliche'd topper on an already way too-cheesy-cake lucas decided to pull the dramatic track back to the sky as Darth raises his arms in disbelief screaming NOOOOOOOO. i actually got embarrassed when that happened. just lame.

my friend put it best when he said while walking back from the movie "when they release the six dvd starwars set, they should have an alternate ending where instead this time the movie ends after Return of the Jedi."

it was just a sad sight




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