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motionbit

Living/working in Dubai

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i visited dubai for a shoot (big oil company was building in the dry dock). it was a neat experience. we were there for a week. it was hot. at times when we were in public i felt pretty uncomfortable. i would say it's a neat place to visit but there's no way i'd want to live and work there. it's incredibly over populated and the cost of living is pretty high.

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I've spoken with some people living there or used to live there, and they like it. I've also heard, that the things we can read in the news are mostly far from the reality and it's quite a safe place.

 

So I've made up my mind and I would go.

 

For the record, here is a site, that said to be accurate about Dubai (I've already ordered two of their books):

http://www.liveworkexplore.com/dubai/

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I've spoken with some people living there or used to live there, and they like it. I've also heard, that the things we can read in the news are mostly far from the reality and it's quite a safe place.

 

So I've made up my mind and I would go.

 

For the record, here is a site, that said to be accurate about Dubai (I've already ordered two of their books):

http://www.liveworkexplore.com/dubai/

 

So, "the things we can read in the news" such as that recent article about the British couple being jailed for a month for kissing in public, that's far from the reality, huh?

 

I doubt it. I think that is very much the reality. The BBC is a very credible news organization. So is AP.

 

Good luck and remember, no kissing, holding hands or showing any affection in public or it's jail time for you.

Edited by tvp

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If I had an offer, I would.

 

 

And about the kissing in public incident:

 

I don't doubt that. I just think that if you are in a different land with particular customs, it should be a no-brainer to adhere to their world a bit. It is "in public". Weird to us? Definitely. But there are things in other lands that you need tend to do differently to avoid the glares, and simply to respect their culture.

 

 

From wikipedia: "Etiquette is an important aspect of UAE culture and tradition, to which visitors are expected to conform. Recently, many expatriates have disregarded the law and been arrested for indecent clothing, or lack thereof, at beaches. Western-style dress is tolerated in appropriate places, such as bars or clubs, but the UAE has maintained a strict policy of protecting highly public spaces from cultural insensitivity."

 

Its hard for me to assume this place is a hell-hole right off the bat. 75% of the population is foreign, and the dominant language is English.

 

 

And there is free practice of religion:

"Dubai also has large Christian, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, and other religious communities residing in the city. Non-Muslim groups can own their own houses of worship, where they can practice their religion freely"

 

And yes, it goes on to say that distribution of non-muslim literature, public preaching of non-muslim beliefs, etc outside of such establishments or within a household is punishable - but it just goes back to my point of respecting their culture.

Edited by AromaKat

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without horning in on what youre doing, whats the salary range down there? i would kind of expect to make some coin to go all the way to weird ass hot ass dont know how its gonna be ass dubai for FT

 

the other thing is i wonder how you will feel treated, im not sure if there is a normally upper middle class or moderately wealthy class owning production spots, but it seems like you have some filthy rich dudes running a bunch of UAE. that said, we are relatively closer economically to the maids they bring from the phillipines than we are to their level, so i wonder if there will be a weird hired help vibe. you guys all saw the migrant rights piece on motionographer, i think that was talking about the gulf states

 

if youre up for the adventure though, and down to be chill about vibing out their ways and not getting tripped out by the differences and just letting it be a noteworthy life experience, i can see it being interesting.

 

keep us posted. it doesnt violate any NDA to tell us what kind of NDA/papers they make you sign right? i'd be curious to hear about it. and if you like shiny 3d, i bet that shit is still big pimpin over there.

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If I had an offer, I would.

 

 

And about the kissing in public incident:

 

I don't doubt that.

 

From wikipedia: "Etiquette is an important aspect of UAE culture and tradition, to which visitors are expected to conform. Recently, many expatriates have disregarded the law and been arrested for indecent clothing, or lack thereof, at beaches. Western-style dress is tolerated in appropriate places, such as bars or clubs, but the UAE has maintained a strict policy of protecting highly public spaces from cultural insensitivity."

 

Its hard for me to assume this place is a hell-hole right off the bat. 75% of the population is foreign, and the dominant language is English.

 

 

And there is free practice of religion:

"Dubai also has large Christian, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, and other religious communities residing in the city. Non-Muslim groups can own their own houses of worship, where they can practice their religion freely"

 

And yes, it goes on to say that distribution of non-muslim literature, public preaching of non-muslim beliefs, etc outside of such establishments or within a household is punishable - but it just goes back to my point of respecting their culture.

 

 

Yeah... I don't need your Islamic Apologia intertwined with your half ass lecture about cultural sensitivity, coupled with your little Wikipedia links about how to behave in the UAE.

 

 

but it just goes back to my point of respecting their culture.

 

 

Yeah, and it goes back to my point that the culture is an oppressive human rights nightmare, as is any "culture" under Sharia; and should be avoided. Moreover, if you want to talk about cultural respect and sensitivity and the concept of "when in Rome, do as the Romans do", where is the sensitivity on the part of Muslims (by in large) to people who don't follow their belief system?

 

I'll tell you where, it's nowhere to be found unless they know they're out numbered, in which case they MAY give you the facade of mutual respect, but only for the sake of their own survival. I emphasize the word "may" because to that end, you'll still find contingencies of Muslims in Western countries (including this one) that refuse to be culturally sensitive or respectful to the host country they've immigrated to even when they are out numbered. Then of course, there is always some cell plotting some sort of bomb plot and some artist getting death threats over a cartoon or some film maker getting killed because he dared to speak out about how women are abused in Islamic societies. All because some Muslim felt "offended".

 

People like you offend me all the time, but I don't go around making death threats to them or trying to carry out acts of violence against them because they have a different opinion, no matter how much I dislike it.

 

As far as freedom of religion goes, you need to go take a serious look at how people of other religions or people of no religion are treated where Islam is the dominant belief system in a country. Regardless of what it may say on paper (so to speak) about "religious freedom" in the UAE or any other Islamic country, Non-Muslims are not treated as equals to Muslims in Islamic societies. Read your own Wiki link:

 

 

distribution of non-muslim literature, public preaching of non-muslim beliefs, etc outside of such establishments or within a household is punishable.

 

 

That's not religious freedom. However, that seems to be lost on you, as apparently are all the other gross injustices that plague countries ruled by followers of Islam.

 

Tolerance is a two way street. Not a one way thoroughfare. Since you brought up the subject of cultural respect and sensitivity: Muslims deserve as much respect as they give to people who don't share their beliefs, which for the most part, is zero or in most cases, less than zero; especially in countries controlled by Islamic theocracies. For that matter, they can hardly bring themselves to tolerate each other.

 

So take your little cultural sensitivity speech and your Islamic Apologia and move to the UAE. Don't wait for an offer, just sell all of your stuff and go.

Edited by tvp

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Hey motionbit!

 

I've lived and worked in Dubai for about 6 years now, both as an employee (online editor at a production company) and running my own post business for the past 3 years.

 

I think you can take a lot of the comments here with a (huge) grain of salt. It's really not that bad hehe. In fact, most people who come hear to work for a year or two end up staying indefinitely, such as myself.

 

There's a ton of info online about living and working in Dubai as an expat, http://www.dubaiforums.com/ might be a good starting point to get most of your answers about practicalities. As far as the post/mograph/film/advertising industry goes, it is a maturing market. As far as the quality of the creative work goes it's absolutely not horrible by any means, but it's not super either. But it's getting better and better, although a bit slowly perhaps. Not sure which agency you would work for but there are some decent once out here, BBDO, Saatchi, Leo Burnett etc etc, and there a a couple of good post facilities as well, so if the place where you would work turns out to be crap you can always check out any of the other players while here.

 

Don't worry about the alcohol license, it's super easy to get once you have your residence visa, and before you get it there's a plethora of hotels with bars, clubs etc, so going without a drink here will be the least of your problems hehe.

 

As far as kissing in public goes, yes, it's actually not allowed (stupid, I know, but that's the islamic way), so you just gonna have to lure the chicks with you to your flat instead, which I assume would be your end goal anyway. ;)

 

But a key aspect to enjoying your life here is the package you get offered (salary, holidays etc) so make sure it's decent so you get enough to have the lifestyle you deserve! :)

 

Any questions, just shoot me an email at preroll [At] sweetandsour.nu

 

Cheers,

PreRoll

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Really? How much do you know about Sharia law? Obviously not all that much, because that kind of theocratic rule in any form, makes even the most racist parts of the Southern United States look like a hippie love fest.

 

And before you go off with offhand remarks criticizing the U.S., you should think about the fact that at least the U.S. has made progress against racism and for human rights, including those of women and homosexuals.

 

Whereas the human rights records of Islamic countries are the worst in the world and that hasn't changed for thousands of years, since the origination of the belief system. In fact, there is no such thing as human rights in Islam because there are no humans. There are only Muslims and non-Muslims and as we all know, at the root of Islam is the belief that all non-Muslims should be killed. Of course that doesn't stop Muslims from also trying to and succeeding at killing each other when they're not trying to kill everyone else.

 

 

 

Be my guest and if you happen to convert along the way, don't bother coming back.

 

Wow thats quite a rant, right up there with the kind of stuff the nazi's were going on about around 70 - 80 years ago about Judaism. In particular, out of all the crap that you have spewed out, I like this little gem of ignorance and fiction, "and as we all know, at the root of Islam is the belief that all non-Muslims should be killed"....Really? The whole religion is all about killing folk huh?

I'm not one to let logic get in the way of a good story, however how did Islam become a religion if Mohammeds root belief was to kill all non believers? Everyone was a non believer at the inception of this religion were they not?

A fantastic attempt at making up things to support your argument, pity like a majority of what you have to say its fiction.

Now I suggest you go find yourself that cave somewhere in Afghanistan where they let intolerant hate filled people such as yourself run free, you would fit right in.

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Hey motionbit!

 

I've lived and worked in Dubai for about 6 years now, both as an employee (online editor at a production company) and running my own post business for the past 3 years.

 

I think you can take a lot of the comments here with a (huge) grain of salt. It's really not that bad hehe. In fact, most people who come hear to work for a year or two end up staying indefinitely, such as myself.

 

There's a ton of info online about living and working in Dubai as an expat, http://www.dubaiforums.com/ might be a good starting point to get most of your answers about practicalities. As far as the post/mograph/film/advertising industry goes, it is a maturing market. As far as the quality of the creative work goes it's absolutely not horrible by any means, but it's not super either. But it's getting better and better, although a bit slowly perhaps. Not sure which agency you would work for but there are some decent once out here, BBDO, Saatchi, Leo Burnett etc etc, and there a a couple of good post facilities as well, so if the place where you would work turns out to be crap you can always check out any of the other players while here.

 

Don't worry about the alcohol license, it's super easy to get once you have your residence visa, and before you get it there's a plethora of hotels with bars, clubs etc, so going without a drink here will be the least of your problems hehe.

 

As far as kissing in public goes, yes, it's actually not allowed (stupid, I know, but that's the islamic way), so you just gonna have to lure the chicks with you to your flat instead, which I assume would be your end goal anyway. ;)

 

But a key aspect to enjoying your life here is the package you get offered (salary, holidays etc) so make sure it's decent so you get enough to have the lifestyle you deserve! :)

 

Any questions, just shoot me an email at preroll [At] sweetandsour.nu

 

Cheers,

PreRoll

 

Hey PreRoll,

Thanks for the infos.

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Wow thats quite a rant, right up there with the kind of stuff the nazi's were going on about around 70 - 80 years ago about Judaism. In particular, out of all the crap that you have spewed out, I like this little gem of ignorance and fiction, "and as we all know, at the root of Islam is the belief that all non-Muslims should be killed"....Really? The whole religion is all about killing folk huh?

I'm not one to let logic get in the way of a good story, however how did Islam become a religion if Mohammeds root belief was to kill all non believers? Everyone was a non believer at the inception of this religion were they not?

A fantastic attempt at making up things to support your argument, pity like a majority of what you have to say its fiction.

Now I suggest you go find yourself that cave somewhere in Afghanistan where they let intolerant hate filled people such as yourself run free, you would fit right in.

 

Hardly. Nice try though.

 

Have you read the Quran?

 

Obviously not. Either that or you are a Muslim and you're just attempting to defame what I've said for that reason.

 

I haven't made anything up, nor are the things I've pointed out "fiction". If you choose to be blind as to what it is like to live under Sharia law, then that's your business, but the numerous incidents and examples of oppression of freedom through imprisonment, mutilation and death are abundant in societies governed by Sharia, including that in Dubai.

 

I've already given factual evidence of some of those incidents as reported by valid news sources. I could easily find pages more, but I'm sure it would all be lost on a person such as yourself. The stories are abundant from a number of news sources and as I've already said, I'm not talking about Fox News when I say that.

 

If you want some examples of Quranic verses that support what I've stated as far as the killing of non-Muslims being at the root of Islam goes, here's a few:

 

[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

 

[4.56] (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.

 

[4.89] They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

 

That's just three, since I don't have the time to sit here all day and copy and paste more examples for you and for everyone else reading this. Besides, as I said before, I'm sure that no matter what I say it won't make any difference to the likes of you.

 

Furthermore, I didn't make any of these versus up. Nor did I fabricate any of the other examples I've provided as you so maliciously accuse me of.

 

So you can call my views "crap" and "ignorant" all you want, but it doesn't change the reality that there are numerous examples that Sharia law is oppressive and that as a belief system, Islam fosters violence in its followers more than any other religion in the modern era, just as it has in past eras and since its inception. For this reason, I don't recommend that a non-Muslim live in a Muslim country governed by Sharia.

 

As for drawing comparisons to Naziism, since you so lazily brought that up: Naziism and Islam have a lot in common with their mutual hatred of Jews, as does Islam and the doctrine of the KKK. The latter being evinced in 2006 when David Duke 'attended the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust in Tehran, Iran, opened by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, stating "The Holocaust is the device used as the pillar of Zionist imperialism, Zionist aggression, Zionist terror and Zionist murder." '

 

All that aside, I haven't called for the mass murder of anyone following Islam, as the Nazis did to the Jews from their rise to power until the end of WW2.

 

Nor would I.

 

I find your attempt to align me with such views as advocating genocide, disgusting.

 

I may disagree with the tenets of Islam (and Sharia Law in any form), but I do not advocate unprovoked violence against its followers. Unfortunately, most of its followers in the world do not reciprocate this.

 

I have pointed out that Sharia law is oppressive (particularly to women) and that Islam as a belief system, has a problem of fostering violence against non-Muslims amongst its followers. While many non-Muslims may not even be aware of what Sharia is, there are numerous examples in the world to support both parts of my statement, none of which are "fiction" or "made up" as you so eloquently put it.

 

All that said, it seems to me that you actually have more in common with Islamists in caves in Afghanistan. You've sat here and blagged on that everything I've said is fictitious despite numerous factual examples and sources provided throughout this thread and yet you provide no factual examples of your own to counter what I've said, just your empty rhetoric and dull wit. How typical.

Edited by tvp

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Ah Yanks without passports huh...

They've got McDonalds and pizzahut you know...

I've recently done some work in Qatar and Dubai, and yes there not western countries, and they have *gosh* their own culture, and *double gosh* they don't want to simply turn into a us colony like the rest of the world is.

I'm not sure I want to live there, but its a pleasent enough place to visit and work for a while, and the people who live there say they stay for the lifestyle, good food, good education, good money.

All the Qataries that I met recently were lovely, friendly polite people, and TBH I think I prefered Qatar to Dubai, possibly because its less western, Dubai is 90% immigrants from all over the world.

A lot of Indians and Malaysians going the shity work, like the us has Hispanic I imagine.

 

And for TVP's information Islam is a continuation from christianity, like christianity is a continuation of Judaism, and in its purist form is a peaceful religion about a direct dialog with god, where it goes astray is with people telling other people what the quaran means, a bit like Christianity and priests. Most of the hate has been fueled by the west installing dictators, redrawing countries boundaries, double dealing, stealing resources etc, they'd be fucked off with the west even if they were christian, when you've been fucked over for a long time, people get violent. Just how many hundreds of thousands have been killed in Iraq, and Afganistan, in order to revenge 3000 US citizans for example.

I remember hearing that everyone in the US had been touched personally by the Twin Towers atrocity, so how many Muslims have been touched by the past 100 years, or even 10 years of killings all over the middle east, in the name of Cold War, Oil, Regime change, in Saddam Husseins case, the US supplied with him with WMD's to try and overthrow Iran, in afganistan weapons and training to fight Russia

You think this double dealing might have fostered a slight suspicion with western values? Couple that to the World bank and IMF only giving aid or loans, if you sell off your national resources to multinationals, and you can hardly blame them for not wanting western values, in fact we play into fundamentalist hands by doing so, ask yourself how you would feel if this was happening to your country ( or wait till china calls in your national debt, or stops selling you rare earth metals for your tech industry, and you might find out sooner than you think )

Middle Eastern politics and history is a very complicated subject filled with very bad decision and acts on all sides, really instead of going in all guns blazing to get them and make them pay, it would have been far better to try and sort out the mess that we are all responsible for, it just maybe have reduced fundmentalism in Islam, and in the west, and might have been a more fitting memory to those who died. Unless of course Christanity is a religon based on Hate as well?

Personally I think any religion that claims to be the only way, has got to be wrong, and to be honest, that goes for capitalism and communism too, they are as many ways as there are people.

Thats a message from Old Europe, where we still have people who remember the bombs falling and whole city blocks being destroyed.

Peace :)

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Ah Yanks without passports huh...

They've got McDonalds and pizzahut you know...

I've recently done some work in Qatar and Dubai, and yes there not western countries, and they have *gosh* their own culture, and *double gosh* they don't want to simply turn into a us colony like the rest of the world is.

I'm not sure I want to live there, but its a pleasent enough place to visit and work for a while, and the people who live there say they stay for the lifestyle, good food, good education, good money.

All the Qataries that I met recently were lovely, friendly polite people, and TBH I think I prefered Qatar to Dubai, possibly because its less western, Dubai is 90% immigrants from all over the world.

A lot of Indians and Malaysians going the shity work, like the us has Hispanic I imagine.

 

And for TVP's information Islam is a continuation from christianity, like christianity is a continuation of Judaism, and in its purist form is a peaceful religion about a direct dialog with god, where it goes astray is with people telling other people what the quaran means, a bit like Christianity and priests. Most of the hate has been fueled by the west installing dictators, redrawing countries boundaries, double dealing, stealing resources etc, they'd be fucked off with the west even if they were christian, when you've been fucked over for a long time, people get violent. Just how many hundreds of thousands have been killed in Iraq, and Afganistan, in order to revenge 3000 US citizans for example.

I remember hearing that everyone in the US had been touched personally by the Twin Towers atrocity, so how many Muslims have been touched by the past 100 years, or even 10 years of killings all over the middle east, in the name of Cold War, Oil, Regime change, in Saddam Husseins case, the US supplied with him with WMD's to try and overthrow Iran, in afganistan weapons and training to fight Russia

You think this double dealing might have fostered a slight suspicion with western values? Couple that to the World bank and IMF only giving aid or loans, if you sell off your national resources to multinationals, and you can hardly blame them for not wanting western values, in fact we play into fundamentalist hands by doing so, ask yourself how you would feel if this was happening to your country ( or wait till china calls in your national debt, or stops selling you rare earth metals for your tech industry, and you might find out sooner than you think )

Middle Eastern politics and history is a very complicated subject filled with very bad decision and acts on all sides, really instead of going in all guns blazing to get them and make them pay, it would have been far better to try and sort out the mess that we are all responsible for, it just maybe have reduced fundmentalism in Islam, and in the west, and might have been a more fitting memory to those who died. Unless of course Christanity is a religon based on Hate as well?

Personally I think any religion that claims to be the only way, has got to be wrong, and to be honest, that goes for capitalism and communism too, they are as many ways as there are people.

Thats a message from Old Europe, where we still have people who remember the bombs falling and whole city blocks being destroyed.

Peace :)

 

 

I disagree with regard to your comment about Islam being a "continuation" of Christianity. Muhammad lead armies that slaughtered Jewish tribes as well as his own people who didn't submit to him and his band of thugs.

 

Jesus on the other hand, did not lead armies, stuck up for prostitutes and told his disciples not to kill in his name and / or in God's name. He also healed a ton of people, if you believe the stories. Now, I'm not going to refute that many "Christians" have ignored these very important lessons that Jesus gave through example, but he did not kill people and / or advocate killing people as Muhammad did. Furthermore, Muhammad gave to his followers through his writings and his deeds examples that are just the opposite of what Jesus categorically stood for.

 

And for the record, I do have a valid passport and I have traveled to other countries on more than one occasion. I also hate McDonald's and PizzaHut, to address your opening salvo.

Edited by tvp

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yes, the bible is a peaceful bundle of poetry.

 

Get your head out of your ass.

 

Hey Parallax,

 

I'm not saying that the Bible is a peaceful bundle of poetry. I'm saying that Islam is not a continuation of Christianity and that Jesus and Muhammad were vastly different in that one lead armies and killed countless people (Muhammad) and one didn't (Jesus).

 

And that's it. So get your head out of your ass and learn the difference between advocation and simply stating the differences between the figureheads of two different belief systems.

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Religion vs. Religion.

 

Better than Mac vs PC.

 

Again, no, it's not religion vs. religion. It's simply stating the differences between the figureheads of two different belief systems, as defined by their actions, from an outside perspective.

 

If the other post had said that Islam was a continuation of Buddhism, I would have done the same thing, because that too, would be incorrect.

Edited by tvp

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Hey Parallax,

 

I'm not saying that the Bible is a peaceful bundle of poetry. I'm saying that Islam is not a continuation of Christianity and that Jesus and Muhammad were vastly different in that one lead armies and killed countless people (Muhammad) and one didn't (Jesus).

 

And that's it. So get your head out of your ass and learn the difference between advocation and simply stating the differences between the figureheads of two different belief systems.

 

Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

 

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

 

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

 

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

 

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

 

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

 

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

 

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

 

 

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

 

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

 

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

 

 

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Top Ten Signs You're a Fundamentalist Christian

 

10 - You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

 

9 - You feel insulted and "dehumanized" when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

 

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

 

7 - Your face turns purple when you hear of the "atrocities" attributed to Allah, but you don't even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in "Exodus" and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in "Joshua" including women, children, and trees!

 

6 - You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

 

5 - You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

 

4 - You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs -- though excluding those in all rival sects - will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most "tolerant" and "loving."

 

 

3 - While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in "tongues" may be all the evidence you need to "prove" Christianity.

 

2 - You define 0.01% as a "high success rate" when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

 

1 - You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history - but still call yourself a Christian.

 

 

This response is a great example of a Straw Man argument, which by definition is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.

 

As a response, it actually qualifies for two different patterns of the Straw Man argument:

 

1. Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position and then refuting it, thus giving the appearance that the opponent's actual position has been refuted.

 

2. Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

 

I think it probably falls more into the second category than the first, but there are definitely elements of both in there.

 

"Why is that?", the reader may ask. Because I am not a fundamentalist Christian, that's why. I am also not offended by your list in the least.

 

To be fair, I wasn't even offended by your initial post that I responded to. It had some good points regarding temporal / worldly affairs. I disagree with the statement in it I mentioned previously and I told you why. There is a difference between disagreeing and being offended, one can be both, but they are not mutually exclusive.

 

On a slight digression, number 7 in this list you've provided is a little on the erroneous side in my opinion, in that I take it it's referring to the "plagues" in the Old Testament in the book of Exodus, which in reality, were more than likely a coincidental natural disaster attributed to "God's punishment" by some Hebrew scribe or a few Hebrew scribes under Moses, who were obviously pissed about being enslaved by the Egyptians.

 

I can't say that I personally find any sort of natural disaster type of event attributed to "God's Punishment" by any religion or belief system to be offensive, whether you call God Allah or Jehovah or whatever, that's probably just wishful thinking on the part of whoever wrote the religious text in question.

 

However, attributing a natural disaster to 'heavenly wrath' in a document and actually physically going out and leading, organizing, participating in and over seeing mass murders the way Muhammad did and advocating such physical acts in your followers and telling them to continue such acts, the way Muhammad did; are two entirely different things.

 

FYI, the events described in Exodus occurred way way before the lifetime of Jesus. That particular incident with the "plagues" being attributed to God's wrath is chronicled in the Old Testament aka the Torah. And again, I'm sorry, but writing some fairy tale crap into your religious book that amounts to 'see, God punished you...' in regard to what was probably a natural disaster occurrence (I mean we're talking about locusts here and probably some sort of subsequent bacteria that infants were lethally susceptible to), hardly equates to carrying out the mass beheadings of thousands of people over an individual life time, which is the case with Muhammad.

 

The bottom line here, is that I wouldn't recommend going to a country with an Islamic Theocracy instituting Sharia law and I think Islam is a bunch of violent, intolerant, oppressive crap for a number of concrete and current reasons as well as very old ones.

 

If you disagree, that's great. It's too bad you're not a little more equal opportunity with your criticism of religious belief systems in that you're willing to defend Islam and Islamic theocracies instituting Sharia, despite the oppression it / they sponsor(s) in the contemporary modern era; but you have no problem criticizing Christianity with this list you've provided. Which is fine I suppose, albeit a little passe and on the safe side.

 

Is that because criticizing Christianity is somehow politically correct and criticizing Islam isn't?

Edited by tvp

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2. Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.

 

 

Good night and good luck!

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Wow, I haven't though this thread would turn into a warzone. If anyone wants to make religious statements, please make an another topic for it.

 

Anyway thanks for the people, who posted useful things. I really appreciate your help.

Edited by motionbit

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